Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
So I am gone. It took an hour. On the advice of counsel (but hey, I’m a barrister) I volunteered no information. Still, there was conversation: the consul is pregnant; her next posting is Tashkent. Was the reason for my renunciation taxes? Of course not: I have no living family in the USA, tried and failed to get a job there where they don’t know what a barrister is, paperwork is burdensome, financial services denied, blah blah blah. Tried to pay in cash but they wouldn’t mix currencies and the credit card had to be in my own name. Add 2.8% to the $2,350. Thanks for your support: I especially appreciate all the archived postings of active forum people like @calgary411 (needless to say I didn’t mention my son, or say that another American consular officer I once met told me that if I lied and said I’d been present in the USA for 365 uninterrupted days during my life, why he could be an American citizen too!), and @nobledreamer. People who, long out of it, still stay on tune and help.
Thanks for your help: I am gone. It took an hour. I wrote a summary of what happened but it seems not to have been posted. Sorry. Anyway, on advice of counsel and common sense I volunteered no information and while it was emotionally draining, it happened, I renounced.
Congratulatons Gone Soon. It’s done, over, finished. Now you can get on with your un-American life in peace. Enjoy.
Well yes. And I still have 2 passports, Swiss & GB. And could have Israeli if I asked… And none of those countries have CBT or the nastiness of penalties for honest mistakes.
Congrats @Gone Soon!
Big congratulations, Gone Soon!! I am always glad when anything I have posted has helped someone else in their own decisions. Good luck to you and your family as you shed the burdens of your (former from this day with your receipt of your CLN) USC and its consequences for you and your loved ones.
@ the former “Gone Soon”, Now Gone,
Congratulations!
“And none of those countries have CBT or the nastiness of penalties for honest mistakes.”
The US has penalties for honest accuracies too, not just for honest mistakes. Congratulations on your escape.
I belatedly noticed this:
“As per, the IRS can’ make it clear. This is from their wbpage Aliens- how many exemptions can be claimed.
‘ For the portion of the year in which a Dual Status Alien is a Resident Alien, the Dual Status Alien may claim all the same personal exemptions that are allowed to a U.S. Citizen. For the portion of the year in which a Dual Status Alien is a Nonresident Alien, the Dual Status Alien may claim only the exemptions allowed to Nonresident Aliens (as explained above).'”
For the portion of the year in which a Dual Status Alien is a Nonresident Citizen, the Dual Status Alien may claim exemptions according to
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Something happened 🙁
If this is the first time you’ve seen this error, it’s your fault and you need to unplug all your hardware.
If this is the hundredth time you’ve seen this error, it’s still your fault and you need to unplug all your hardware.
Don’t bother rebooting. The IRS isn’t going to answer your question next time either.
@ Gone Soon
Congratulations! and right at the start of summer too your fife of freedom begins, I remember how I felt like a big weight off my shoulders when I walked out of the embassy.
@Juliette
Not sure if you are still working on your final return but for the final dual status year yes you can take the FEIE however it is prorated. There are instructions with the form 2555 how to figure it out. You need to count how many qualifying days so from Jan 1st up to the day before your renunciation date.
You can also take the full personal exemption but not the standard deduction.
I think it worthwhile, as a likely last posting (not to be confused with Last Post although I note that FBAR prosecutions have led to not a few suicides), to give my reason for renouncing.
FBARs and Forms 8938, 5471 have been manageable for us. I am U.S. tax compliant. Form 3520 to report a gift to a foreign trust, by itself, would be manageable where the beneficiary is a nonresident alien and the trustee either a NRA or irrelevant to the issue. (It matters whether the trust is deened a grantor trust and whether it is discretionary or otherwise, in English terms, “interest in possession”. It matters whether the kind of abuse and misapplication of funds notorious in American special-needs-trust cases and UTMA accounts is possible in the other country (i.e. England). A Junior ISA custodian simply will not release assets or funds except to another licensed custodian until the child reaches age 18 or dies or is certified by HMRC as having less than six months to live.
The unresolvable problem is the potential for IRS arbitrariness and capriciousness in the interpretation of 26 CFR 1.674(a)-1 – “Power to control beneficial enjoyment; scope of section 674”. This would bring into play Forms 3520-A and 8621 and, if the IRS is intransigent, double taxation which can easily happen when different countries impose tax on different parties, or based on conflicting characterisation of a transaction or entity, or in different tax years.
Here we are talking about privately and publicly funded benefits for a special-needs child. IRS Ogden wants to interpret U.K. vulnerable person (disability) trusts as special needs trusts, and a junior ISA (Individual Savings Account) as a trust, perhaps a UTMA gift. And regardless of English or Scottish law on the powers of the guardian or trustee, to refuse to acknowledge — anything actually, but more specifically that the sole “owner” (in IRC 674 and the whole range of Subpart E https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/subtitle-A/chapter-1/subchapter-J/part-I/subpart-E ) creates a danger for me and for the patrimony and welfare of my child that is impossible to bear.
It is only by happenstance that my child, born before June 2017, is not a U.S. citizen. While the IRS has no power to declare someone a U.S. citizen it not beyond belief that they could demand proof of status, which depends on proving a negative as to prior ressidence or presence under INA 301 and 309.
It was emotionally draining, and outrageously expensive (one month’s earnings) for me to renounce. But given the facts there was no choice. Until now the disability trust has been minimally funded, the JISA likewise. But over time they could be attractive targets for the IRS, the paperwork alone emotionally and eventually financially draining.
I tried for a couple of months living in the U.S. and looking for work. As a child I lived for a while on a military base. I have an affection for the U.S.A. but as with FATCA, IGAs and all the rest taxwise there is no reciprocity in the allegiance it demands even of its most “accidental” citizens and regardless of their presence, duties and affection in another sovereign country. Jefferson won over Hamilton in the matter of permanent allegiance. The Expatriation Act of 1868 lives on as 8 U.S.C. § 1481 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481 Unfortunately for those claiming implicit expatriation or renunciation, the burden of proof for expatriation after 1961 is, for U.S.G. purposes and seemingly for foreign bank purposes as well, “upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred,” (On the other hand, the burden of proof of acquisition of U.S. nationality by someone born abroad is on the claimant. That $100 spent on a Consular Report of Birth Abroad can be very expensive, indeed, if the citizenship proves unneeded and unwanted,)
In the fullness of time (up to 8 week, the consul said) I expect to have that proof. In the meantime I have an interim letter from the consul. Without proof one is victim of presumably unintended consequences of SCOTUS decision addressing other points, of aggressive, press-driven Congressional attacks on notorious wealthy expatriates, public hostility equating expatriation to treason, vagueness of tax law and arbitrariness and willful ignorance of those enforcing it. “Jobsworths” in that lovely English expression well used by Esther Rantzen in the BBC TV show “That’s Life” back in the day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobsworth
@Gone Soon,
My condolences at being forced out of your citizenship due to the worthless “jobworths” of our world.
My congratulations at getting out while you still can. At this point, I put nothing past the USA implementing literally ANYTHING– maybe even making it impossible to renounce? The entire populace appears shell-shocked by the ever-so-slow lowering of the bar of civility in USA society.
I hope you see that CLN a.s.a.p!
I only just noticed this today:
I was filing some paperwork and had a look at my old US passport (I got it in 2006 & it has my fav photo!).
I suddenly noticed that across the top of the second page (signature page in mine) it has printed:
“CLN approved March 1, 2016”.
I’d never noticed it before and thought I’d let others know in case I’m not the only one.
@Jane
Can you post a pic of the printing with a scale along side. Perhaps some may with to have a stamp made to “self certify” their CLN.
I would guess they’re all marked in some way. Mine says “Lost US citizenship under the provision of Section 349(a)(5) INA on March 4, 2013. I renounced so may be why the wording is different.
Mike Gogulski posted his on his site, but it’s on the last page of his passport, “Bearer expatriated self on Dec 8, 2008 under provisions of INA 349(a)(5)” I’ve seen a couple others, but can’t recall where, but IIRC they don’t seem to have a uniform way of cancelling the passports.
@Japan T,
Here you go:
https://imgur.com/a/LyxSgVK
My passport was issued in NY. I do not have anything else stamped or written re: CLN in my passport, only what’s shown in the above photo. It almost looks (lightly) typed? But, I can’t see or feel anything on the reverse?
@Japan T,
One more thing, and not sure if it matters but I relinquished, not renounced. You’d have to find another Brocker from NY who renounced around 2016 to see if their’s is any different?
The passport doesn’t get sent back to the passport issuing office. It’s retained by the embassy/consulate and cancelled there when the CLN is issued. 7 FAM 1227(e)(3),(6) “The post should . . . retain the passport in a secure location . . . When the post receives the approved CLN, the post should promptly cancel all unexpired passports (books and cards). . . .”
@pacifica777
As if ANYTHING said or written has any validity?
My people in Perth, WA stated my paperwork (I assume ALL) would be forwarded. It would be very odd if the most compelling piece of USA citizenship did NOT go back with the rest?
Asking for your take. I cancelled my renunciation appointment last summer b/c of family illness. Now ready to revive it. I’m a Canadian citizen.
My question: Post renunciation, will my status as a renunciant lead to refusal of entry? (I have no other issues that would make me inadmissible, except a renunciation.)
My sense of the current govt is that they may adopt a punitive stance. I know no one can predict this, but I’d appreciate your take. As always, many thanks,
@ Duchesse,
No particular restrictions after renunciation. You’ll be under the same rules as any other Canadian citizen who wishes to enter the US (which, as you’re probably aware, is usually pretty routine and quick experience).
People have been reporting their experiences on the Entering the US thread during the past five years. There’s quite a few reports there. As I recall, generally no problems, a couple of people reported some hassle (but people who have not renounced occasionally run into hassle too), and no one has reported denial of entry.
Duchesse.. No problem. On our last trip across the guy at YVR said. “ I see you were born in the US, are you American?”. (. US place of birth on Canadian passport). Answer. “no “. “Did you renounce?”. “yes”. “Have a nice trip”
Of course I can’t imagine how bad it would be if one were born in Iran or Venezuela
Just received an SMS text from the Embassy’s courier service: my CLN is on its way. 29 days after formal renunciation.
My situation: I am a citizen of Canada. I lived in the USA in the 1980s, on a Green Card. I married a US citizen. We have 3 kids, all dual citizen Canada-USA. We moved to Canada some 25 years ago. My wife is now a dual citizen Canada-USA. She became a Canadian citizen 10 years ago. She is up to date and clean with the IRS. She files as “Married filing separately” with me as her Non Resident Alien spouse. My oldest son is also up to date and clean with the IRS. He will be renouncing his US citizenship tomorrow! He plans to open a TFSA and an RESP (for his son) the very next day. My wife is sick of all the ridiculous IRS and FBAR filing requirements. She plans on renouncing her US citizenship. We have a few questions. 1. What will happen to her 401(K) when it comes time to receive payments? Will she be able to limit the US tax withholding to 15% by the Canada-USA tax treaty? 2. What will happen to her SS benefits? US tax withholding at 15% according to the Canada-USA tax treaty? 3. What will happen when she inherits from her mother who lives in the USA? Can assets such as stocks be transferred from the estate of the deceased in the USA to my wife’s brokerage account here in Canada or should these assets first be sold within the estate and her inheritance be only cash? Thanks!