Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@JapanT
“I’m off to bed as it is midnightbin my patch of the world.”
I can’t actually picture you sleeping, given what lurks in the closets and under the beds.
“I remember reading a book in infant’s school about chicken licken and cocky locky”
Funny thing, it was chicken little in the version I read as a child in America, but henny penny in the version my children read in England. 🙂
Well wasn’t it George Bernard Shaw who said “The United States and Great Britain are two countries divided by a common language.”?
I grew up in the UK( infants school in the 50″s.)
@ JapanT
Yes, indeed I have been a victim of ID theft. A Medical board in the US required me to give them my SSN for registration the first time. Soon after, I had someone living under my name in that state with credit cards, and utilities etc. It took me over a year and a few hundred dollars to sort it out. BUT if the whole world is at risk FATCA and CRS can’t operate.
“I grew up in the UK( infants school in the 50″s.)”
Yes I thought that was the case. I guess when it comes to paranoid barnyard fowl, the variations are maybe not so much a result of US/UK differences as the fact that there’s no copyright. 🙂
PS Plaxy
I think, Chicken Lickin and Henny Penny, are much better than Chicken Little, at they rhyme!
PS @ Plaxy
I would assume we would all agree that we know who Foxy Loxy is.
Sunny Nony?
Or was Foxy Loxy’s distinctive characteristic a tendency to eat chickens, rather than a tendency not to worry?
It’s been a long time since I last read it.
@Plaxy
I think I remember Foxy Loxy’s MO was a tendency to trick and to eat chicken lickin, but many years have intervened…..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny
No not Sony Nony The IRSey
🙂
@heidi wrote: “You haven’t yet been questioned by the IRS, so why not renew your passprt now, they should give you another 10yrs, you can say your dog ate it.”
Won’t work. My Swiss ID card was stolen. Scotland Yard and Swiss consul both said it would be flagged on Europe-wide immigration computer systems and, if for anything, would be used to open a bank account. On the other hand when I transferred money in person for my employer for a property deal they took my ID card & DL into a back room and admitted they were checking some database.
So I wouldn’t count on using a cancelled passport. I remember in the newspaper reading of someone who tried to enter China at a remote crossing point, thinking they’d not be able to know he was a Chinese expat dissident. He was flagged and arrested.
OK, you can’t be arrested abroad for a US tax crime unless it is also classed as money laundering or major tax fraud. But they can still cancel your passport for a civil debt. In which case you can try for a laissez passer from the country where you have residence rights. I’ve seen it work for political asylees, not child support or tax debtor passport cancellation cases.
Dominica and Nevis are your friends. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27674135
“Living overseas has in no small way spared me the most of the hell victims of ID theft are reported to go through. Now, thanks to FATCA, these problems are turning up here in Japan.”
Japan has had identity theft for centuries.
When the US enacted the Privacy Act of 1974, I wondered why. When I moved to Japan, I learned why the US needed its Privacy Act.
One can only wonder if the US government and courts will ever understand why the US enacted its Privacy Act of 1974.
Though even if they learn, that wouldn’t stop identity theft by embezzlers working in the US government. Living outside the US doesn’t spare victims from most of the hell.
@GoneSoon
But he hasn’t been accused of any tax crime or debt and as yet the IRS and passport renewal are not talking to each other, besides you have to be asssed for a debt of $50,000 before passports are revoked. US passports are being renewed at the moment by non tax compliant individuals all the time with no problem. In fact I talked to one last weekend. It would be prudent to renew before the agencies get together.
@GoneSoon
JapanT’s passport hasn’t been canceled or expired, it is still active. He may be below the filing limit and not have bank accounts over 10,000. There is no way of the State knowing this at present.
@JapanT and all of the others trapped in this bureaucratic nightmare, I am so sorry. From “accidentals” to autistic children of accidentals, it’s just IMMORAL what the USA is doing. They only have this power because the rest of the world’s powers, at the time at Bretton-Woods, trusted them. That was the mistake. The USA used that agreement to become a global bully that has never been reversed nor contained. Then Nixon ditched the gold standard…. 🙁 Only decent people have kept this in check since Nixon, and the greedy-grubs have now infiltrated the US Congress fully.
Fast-forward to 2018, and there’s an imbecile-sociopath in the WH, w/more “greed-above-all-else”, US congress calling the shots. You can bet there’s not a complete heart amongst them. Shame on Obama to allow this to ever see the light of day, as written. Every post here should be posted to his Twitter & FB, & whatever.
I’ve relinquished and have my CLN– but I have two, USA-tainted children with me in AU. I want them to end their ties, but they’re only 20’s. On the other hand, I don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel. I certainly don’t want them back in “bulls-eye”-gun-world-land. I also want them to pledge “their” allegiance to Australia, as this country is the one who afforded them the things the USA dropped the ball on.
We humans have really been a scourge on this planet. From Google Earth, our planet looks like it has cancer– the green/blue forests & water buried under the gray concrete. The more I read here and about the environment, the sadder I get. Sigh. Just too much to take on in one sitting, sorry.
I just lost a huge comment here…I had to attend my kids– what happened at this site that a refresh ruined it?
@Jane,
I don’t know. I checked Pending,Trash, and Spam to see if it got sent there, but it’s not there either. Had it appeared on the thread before it was lost? If it was still in the box where it’s composed, before one hits “post comment,” I know you can lose a comment if the page is refreshed because it’s not saved at that point (that happened to me).
I’ve sadly lost many a comment his way. I now try to compose elsewhere and copy it into the comment box when it’s ready.
My previous will have to suffice. We’re intelligent people. Must we lead a physically rebellion?
I cannot believe we must.
@Jane
I feel your anguish. The glaciers here in Switzerland have retreated beyond belief and that idiot egotist in White House denys what is obvious to the rest of the World.
He may be an idiot but all the countries that depended so much on the yankee dollar for so long can’t be all that bright either. If anything, to his credit,he may be a driving force for that to change.If not, we are no smarter than he is.
@ Heidi,
Glad you were able to clear your ID theft up so quickly and effortlessly. While non victims of ID theft can get their DL renewed in a single visit, I must make two visits or more and provide much more documentation to prove I am me.
Since moving to Japan, I have learned of the probability of a person or persons securing home loans, possibly including VA loans and other VA benefits in my name. When this was first brought to my attention, I was told not to worry. Living in Japan would shield me, I was told, from any of the effects of being a victim of ID theft.
@Nononymous and Heidi.
As the two of you like to insinuate extreme worry on my part, let’s see how you would react of the following.
While still optional, we were heavily pressured into choosing to receive our pay through the direct deposit system during my time in the navy. I opted to continue receiving a pay check and cashing it on the mess deck. Shipmates mocked me as you do for worrying and not taking the convenient route.
At my next command, one of my shipmates had moved his wife and children from his last command. Given the nature of the duty, our postings were temporary and his family lived off base. On his first payday at our new post, only $1.90 was deposited into his account via direct deposit. Disbursing said it was a computer error and that they’d send a message to the cognizant work center to have it corrected by next pay. He’d have to wait until next payday to receive this payday’s pay. For the next several months, he received only $1.90 each payday. Last I heard from him, he was still working to get his pay problem fixed, his car had been repossed and he had just received an eviction notice. A monster under the bed to you, but something far more real to he and his family.
Another shipmate at this same command had been listed KIA in action during the first gulf war. When he finally made it back to his command and went to disbursing to get his back pay, the disbursing officer looked up at him and said, “I can’t pay you. You are dead,”. “ Next.” . Life long problems follow him around as computer systems “catch” those with SSNs that do not match DOB.
Each of these situations following involved repeated assurances by bureaucrats, employers, educational guidance counsellors, career advisors, peers, friends and/or family making the same comments as you.
At my next command, I was not paid for a month. 18 months later, I was finally paid my missing base pay. As I was no longer at sea in a war zone, I was not paid my sea pay, hazardous duty pay nor various other special pay and allowances earned during that month at sea in a war zone. More than twenty years later, I have yet to receive my missing pay nor my LES (pay slip) for that month, which law demands must be provided. Just another monster though, I guess.
Another monster I found under the bed was when I studied abroad during my freshman year in college. Studying abroad is always expensive so to do so I had to secure scholorships, grants and loans or I could not go. Hard work and perseverance paid off and I was finally able to getting the funding I needed and, with the asurance that it would be delivered, set off for a full school year (US school year, so 10 months) in Japan. The program included living in a dorm with a cafeteria that provided breakfast and dinner included in the dorm fee and lunch which we had to pay extra for. The meals provided were of such low quality and volume that even the Japanese students refused to eat them despite having paid for them. I once saw the cook loading up his car with frozen meat from the cafeteria kitchen in the middle of the night. The promised funding did not materialize. With no money other than my GI Bill ($300. a month if I recall) I lived on these substandard, two small meals a day. I left the US with a 28 inch waist and returned so thin that I could not find any pants thin enough to not look clownishly huge on me. The many stomach problems that have remained with me these 23 years since are constant reminders of those monsters under my bed.
Frightened by these monsters under my bed, I jumped at the chance to study at a famous university in Japan as an exchange student. After my experience with bureaucratic failure during my previous visit, I was very diligent in ensuring that there would be no similar surprises during my planned 12 month stay in Japan. The problems that were awaiting me were from Japanese bureaucrats this time. However, their American cousins had brewed up some for me on the home campus. The computer system automatically declared that I quit school and thus I must immediately begin repayment of my student loans… while I was studying in Japan. The US and Japanese school years do not start at the same time. We start on April 1st in Japan meaning I could not enroll in classes for the Fall semester on my home campus. I, not being enrolled in classes, was automatically determed to have dropped out of school. The solution the home campus decided upon was to apply the 6 month deferral for graduates so that I would not have to make loan payments while studying abraod. As I had a couple more years of study left, I became the only one I have met who had to start paying off student loans while still attenting school. Just a monster under the bed to you, though. Just another little monster under the bed that the highly paid professionals and commenters alike have no idea may exist.
But the home campus was not finished with me. Due to the incompatibility of the two school systems, I spent more time in the school admin offices the last two years of school than I did in the classroom an studying combined trying to get credit for this year of studying abroad. Telling a coworker of my distrust of the automation of everything as it was in the late 90’s, he told me of how much better automation made things. Years ago, he lost his paper print out of his class schedule and and it took two whole weeks to get straightened out. “Two WEEKS! “Two WEEKS! I’d give my left arm to solve my class credit problem in two WEEKS. I have spent hours, and hours and hours each week in the various offices on campus for the past two YEARS and still have not been able to resolve the issue.” was my reply. While not bad, my grades could have been much better if I did not need to spend so much time straightening out these messes.
Each semester save the first, the VA lost all record of me ever stepping foot on campus. While most other vets were receiving their GI Bill payments, I was having to rererereredo all the paperwork to get mine…each semester. My records were not the only ones lost.
But what does keep me awake at nigh, besidee my long work hours (12 hours on Wednesdays) and early morning starts, is Japan’s nationl health care system. The question of whether or not foreign nationals had to pay into was a much discussed issue at work, among friends and featured in publications. The arguments included, “The law says we must pay into it. “ Countered by “Do you know of anyone who has been caught not paying into it? Have you heard of anyone?”
“Well, no but the law says they can just go to the bank and take money out of your account.”
“Who?”
“The city office.”
“Oh come on man! They’d be legal procedures, court or something. The city office just can’t go and take money out of our accounts.”
“That’s what the law says”
“Yeah, well tell me when it happens.”
I listened and asked questions. Not finding a definitive answer, I asked first my employer and then at city hall. Both told me that as long as I had private health insurance, as a foreignor I was not required to enroll and pay into the national heath care system.
And so I did not.
Years later, a coworker, friend and neighbor (all the same person) told me that when he went to the ATM the other day he found a huge sum of money missing. He too had not paid into it and our city office sent someone to the bank who then withdrew several years of back payments form his account. Not so long after that, a family friend had the same experience. Once caught, the city office can take 2 to 5 years worth of back payments from your bank account. Despite all asurances to the contrary.
If I was provided with the correct information, I could have avoided this financial
Apocalypse. Now it is only a matter of when, not if.
Your arguments track very closely with those I have heard many times in the past that have proven to be horribly wrong. Many here seem content to comment as if the situation is static, ignoring the history of the situation and make judgements based upon incomplete and often very outdated information. Worse, you make light of the hard learned lessons of those less fortunate than yourselves who take the time to try to warn others to dig much much deeper to earn all they can about as many of the factors that can come in to play to affect our future, and hopefully to convince others to resist this mad dash of automatic sharing of highly private financial information.
‘[…] Japan’s nationl health care system. The question of whether or not foreign nationals had to pay into was a much discussed issue at work, among friends and featured in publications. The arguments included, “The law says we must pay into it. “ Countered by “Do you know of anyone who has been caught not paying into it? Have you heard of anyone?”’
There are newspaper articles at least once a year. The occasions when people get caught not paying are usually when they have a hospital bill, but there are other occasions too.
I don’t know if a law requires a city hall to notify a resident before seizing money, but if there is such a law it has no teeth, like US law that requires the IRS to credit you for withholding and notify you if they aren’t crediting the amount you claimed and issue you a Notice of Deficiency before stealing your money. If such a law exists, courts will never uphold it.
‘I asked first my employer and then at city hall. Both told me that as long as I had private health insurance, as a foreignor I was not required to enroll and pay into the national heath care system.’
Employers don’t count; they’re famous for lying. But city hall, yes the law says they can tell you whatever lies they want just like the IRS does, and by law you get penalized if you believe them.
Heidi:
“I am hoping the new EU data protection laws will challenge the weaknesses in FATCA data collection and then the rest of the world will follow.”
The EU Article 29 Data Protection Working Party has commented on this question (http://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/article29/document.cfm?doc_id=49770)
“Under this new legal framework, the same requirement for compliance with the principles of storage limitation, purpose limitation, data minimization, lawfulness, fairness, transparency, proportionality, security, necessity and oversight and redress will continue to apply. The GDPR also contains a newly established principle of accountability. Under that principle, it falls on data controllers to demonstrate how they are complying with the abovementioned principles as well as with all the provisions of the GDPR. ”
This will presumably apply for any bank in a jurisdiction outside the EU which has signed a CRS exchange agreement with any EU Member State? If so, it might indeed have a limited indirect benefit for FATCA victims in those jurisdictions. Might be worth exploring.