Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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“At this point it sounds like Ben’s banks are not aware of his US personhood. If one day they get suspicious and ask, and he shows them a CLN to make them go away, presumably they won’t share his data, and won’t have shared in the past.”
One can hope.
pacifica – I highly appreciate the effort you’ve punt in compiling this extensive list, thank you.
Seems like in past years it became harder to negate the passport application indeed.
Nononymous & others:
I expect them to eventually have full access to all information. Once they build the correct systems, it’s very easy to cross-reference, and find *all* US citizens overseas. Even those without SSNs/passports.
But I also take into account, that once they do that, they’ll face backlash from 9 million individuals around the globe, and their lawyers, and perhaps governments. The only reason they manage to do with their current evil, is because it’s targeted, and concerns the few individuals they fight every year. Once they go in a wide hunt, it’ll be the end of facta, or at least the parts concerning “mild” cases like dual citizens, etc.
@Ben
I think we often attribute more power to them than they have or can manage because of their constant threats and penalties. The IRS is overworked and understaffed with their numbers cut each year, they can hardly manage homelander taxes. Bullies control through fear and threats but have little real power.
“I expect them to eventually have full access to all information. Once they build the correct systems, it’s very easy to cross-reference, and find *all* US citizens overseas. Even those without SSNs/passports.”
I suspect the same.
“I think we often attribute more power to them than they have or can manage because of their constant threats and penalties. The IRS is overworked and understaffed with their numbers cut each year, they can hardly manage homelander taxes. Bullies control through fear and threats but have little real power.”
Once it is fully automated it will not be hard. Now that every country is already collecting with many sending more than required and CRS now coming online, or at least soon to come on line, It’ll be easy.
If they are are smart, they will continue to do it piecemeal. If FATCA becomes too burdensome for our countries of residence, I doubt they will seriouly challenge the US. They’ll take the easier road and sell us out.
“they’ll face backlash from 9 million individuals around the globe, and their lawyers, and perhaps governments. ”
The USG will never face a CBT backlash from 9 million individuals around the globe. Nobody knows how many USCs are living outside America. Most never file. Most of those who do file don’t owe any significant US tax.
Three options: comply, renounce, ignore. Most choose to ignore. If FATCA causes problems with bank access, it may be time to renounce.
Those who decide to renounce may choose a clean exit (filing nothing) or they may choose to “come into compliance”, backfile, and send the IRS a list of their non-US assets.
The US State Departure sells a product called renunciation. It costs $2350 (for now) and gets you free of US Personhood.
The US Treasury sells a complementary product called Form 8854. It may cost a lot, or nothing. Those with US assets, or with a need or desire for hassle-free ESTA clearance post-renunciation, may want to consider purchasing.
@JapanT
All their data collection will gain them nothing if they cannot collect
BUT I do understand that those who cannot renounce for lack of another citizenship are more exposed because of the threat of passport revocation.
“@JapanT
All their data collection will gain them nothing if they cannot collect
BUT I do understand that those who cannot renounce for lack of another citizenship are more exposed because of the threat of passport revocation.”
Agreed BUT, having your data in the hands of IRS which has shown their inability to keep it secure is not much different than posting it on facebook.
Nets the IRS nothing but gives every other crook in the world everything they could ever want to know about a potential target of their evil doings.
@JapanT
I am hoping the new EU data protection laws will challenge the weaknesses in FATCA data collection and then the rest of the world will follow.
I believe you said your wife had worked in the US? Is there any possibility of her working in the EU or the UK for 5yrs? You could then get a European passport. Much of the British Banking (passporting etc) looks like it may go to Ireland, so no language problems for citizenship exam.
I wonder, re. “intent”:
Vance v. Terrazas & Afroyim v. Rusk cases, referenced by the travel.state.gov website refer to cases where the individual *didn’t* want to lose his citizenship:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship.html
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/444/252/case.html
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/387/253
But someone unaware of his citizenship, while having no intent of losing it, also doesn’t intend on *preserving* it. Can one claim that he *would have* intended to lose his citizenship, had he known about it?
The law itself doesn’t mention intent. The mere act can then be seen, arguably, as effectful relinquishment, as there was no intent for it to be otherwise. What do you think?
@Ron
The problem is that decisions are made by some faceless State dept official in Washinton and in the past have proved to be quite arbitrary.
“The law itself doesn’t mention intent. ”
Unfortunately it does:
“A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality”
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
@Heidi
“@JapanT
I am hoping the new EU data protection laws will challenge the weaknesses in FATCA data collection and then the rest of the world will follow.”
Sadly, with CRS, I think that genie is already out of the bottle.
“I believe you said your wife had worked in the US? Is there any possibility of her working in the EU or the UK for 5yrs? You could then get a European passport. Much of the British Banking (passporting etc) looks like it may go to Ireland, so no language problems for citizenship exam.”
That would be nice. I used to study gaelic. Alas, my passport expires in less than 5 years.
CRS/EU data protection is much stronger than the US. I believe it is already being questioned and challenged by the EU.
You haven’t yet been questioned by the IRS, so why not renew your passprt now, they should give you another 10yrs, you can say your dog ate it. 🙂
“CRS/EU data protection is much stronger than the US. I believe it is already being questioned and challenged by the EU.”
Well, I would hope so. However, there are no unsinkable ships. All data on all residents of the EU in one system is THE system to hack. Eventually it will be breached. Either by direct hack or more likely by pressuring someone with access to let them in. It’ll only take one of the now huge number of people who’ll have access to be bought off, extorted, black mailed or whatever and bye bye secrecy. Bet it happens earlier than anyone would think but that we will not learn of it until long after the fact.
“You haven’t yet been questioned by the IRS, so why not renew your passprt now, they should give you another 10yrs, you can say your dog ate it. “
Hmm, interesting suggestion. It was my last passport renewal that eventually led me here. The info required and how it would be used and the threats for not providing it leaves me to believe that the IRS now questions you via the passport application/renewal process. I had to agree to waive my rights amd allow the State Dept. to share the information required on the application with law enforcement, the Treasury Dept. and other unnamed entities or risk not having my passport renewd. At the time, that would have meant never meeting my son, though that was before the passport revocation law.
I’ll have to look into that. A friend, now deceased, had difficulty renewing his passport. In fact, it expired before he could get it renewed. Japanese immigration was aware of the problem, so did not arrest him but told him he must stay indoors and not answer the door untill his new passport arrived. If the police stopped him before his passport arrived, he would have been arrected, imprisoned and eventually deported.
So, I’d have to really look into what risks I would be taking in regards to State IRS wedding AND how that would effect my visa allowing me to live and work in Japan.
@JapanT
Reports here and elsewhere (or rather the lack of such reports) suggests that there is no routine scrutiny of passport applicants by the IRS. Certainly not in my personal experience, though as I’ve said before, I renewed from a temporary address abroad without mail forwarding so I don’t really know and, oops, accidentally transposed a few digits on my SSN just for fun.
Whether you would find passport renewal to be an unacceptable risk is for you to decide.
Otherwise, either everyone’s data will be leaked everywhere and we’ll all fall victim to criminals, or it won’t. I make no predictions, but since I’m not willing to spend the rest of my life raising goats in some remote valley, dealing only in cash, this is something I refuse to worry about beyond taking the most basic of precautions. Every time a weird charge appears on my credit card, it is refunded without protest, and that’s good enough for me.
@JapanT
I remember reading a book in infant’s school about chicken licken and cocky locky, I believe an acorn fell on chicken licken’s head and he thought the sky was falling down. 🙂
While awaiting my visa allowing me to live and work in Japan, I went to the DMV to renew my drivers license (DL). Ever have to prove you are you? Got to see my name and SSN on a DL with someone else’s name and address. They “renewed” my DL months before. I was drining for months, out of state too, on an invalid DL why whatever criminal check the Japanese gov. performs before granting visas was on going. Boy, what fun it would have been if pulled over out of state for speeding or a broken tail light.
How wa# this person able to steal my ID? Could it have been because or in part due to the US gov. leaking my entire service record not once but twice (that we know of)? Dunno. But, they did.
A couple of years ago, a major publisher of early childhood educational materials suffered a data breach in which my family’s data was stolen. The company, not being experts in data security hired an industry leader in the field. An employee of said data security industry leader, brought a thumb drive with him to work and copied the entire publishing company’s (or much of it) data bank and sold. Didn’t realize he was anything wrong. How many times a year do we learn of major data breaches? More than a few.
But these breaches are relatively small when compared to the entire population of a nation, of the EU. Also, the information the companies we choose to do business with is less than what FATCA and CRS collects and shares. Whomever bought the publisher’s data know we have children and our address and may know the age of our children but they do not know their nationality, the nationality of their parents nor where the go to school. Nor do they know the employers of their parents.
FATCA and whatever CRS either has or eventually will have are completely different from what our crecit card companies and those we do business with have. Our FIs and companies are penalized for data breaches. Governments are not.
“Our FIs and companies are penalized for data breaches. Governments are not.”
Indeed. And if there’s not much you can do to change a situation, fretting about what might or might not happen is a waste of spirit.
@Heidi
Are you a victim of ID theft?
Have you ever had sensitive personal data; full name including middle name, SSN, mother’s maiden name, home of record, birth certificate, duty stations and dates served there, dates of rank, awards, citations, date of and rank at discharge, Veterns Administation benefits etc. leaked my the sane government that demands all this financial data via FATCA?
After having someone steal my ID, I can no longer renew my DL in my home state as you would. I have to wait several days as they verify I am the real me. Living overseas has in no small way spared me the most of the hell victims of ID theft are reported to go through. Now, thanks to FATCA, these problems are turning up here in Japan.
Have you been coerced by the US gov to provide info and permission to use that info in ways that violate the law? Coerced by the threat of refusal to renew a passport when you have a newborn on its way?
How is your comment any different from a comment made a little while ago that Plaxy got worked up over.
“Indeed. And if there’s not much you can do to change a situation, fretting about what might or might not happen is a waste of spirit.”
Would you say that or something similar to a rape victim? Read my response to Heidi.
I’m off to bed as it is midnightbin my patch of the world.
“How is your comment any different from a comment made a little while ago that Plaxy got worked up over.”
Scuse me? A comment made by whom? What did the commenter say?
“Read my response to Heidi.”
I did, and responded. Your turn.
Twenty years ago, when the IRS sent me the letter demanding spot exchange rates for yeach and every pay day with the threat of $10,000 fines fir each error or omossion, I was told not to worry, just stop filing, they’d never care to even learn of me and if they somehow did, there is nothing they can do about it unless I go back to the US. Now my passport is under threat and my banks are spying in my fir the IRS. I wonder….are any of you among those who so many years ago told me there was nothing to worry about?
@japanT
Then maybe the whole financial data internet world will come tumbling down because of of the impossibility of operating FATCA and CRS, its Schafenfreude. 🙂