Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Hi Medea and Heidi,
Thank you for your responses. They’re very helpful in making sure that I’ll make the right decision.
Ryan
@Ryan
Your story might have a twist in that your husband is American ( I assume?) I would think as the spouse of an American you could always go back to America. Secondly watch out for joint accounts while living in Australia.
Thank you Polly,
My husband is indeed American; born and raised in Ohio. It doesn’t get much more American than that! That is what I assume is the keypoint that I could reapply for a green card, if the need ever arose, that I am married to an American citizen.
What about joint accounts in Australia should I be weary of?
Ryan
Any ‘foreign’ joint account you share with a US person will be reported to the IRS. Best to keep your accounts and finances separate.
Have you looked into the time scale for Australian resident visas for your US spouse? I remember my friend’s British daughter married an Australian in the UK, it took almost a year for her to obtain a visa to join him.
Oh, you are so right about the joint accounts. I never thought about the IRS enquiring about that, and being joint would defy the whole point of renunciation. Thank you!
As for his residency visa application, we submitted the request in late February. The Australian immigration page does state it could take 11-15 months to be approved, if it does. We’ve heard stories from friends who have gotten approvals in six months. But we’re prepared for the long haul and if it takes a year+
just a quick update
i renounced last week
i came into the consulate,the person showed me the documents i previously emailed,(i was told by email to bring birth certificate,both passports) ,he did not even checked my birth certificate,did not look at the files i was told to bring,they already had all the paperwork done ,they showed it to me and checked with me if the info was correct,the only thing that interested them was that i was renouncing willfully and that understood the consequences,they did not explain anything else ,no personal questions ,no tax questions,no why are you renouncing,nothing.I paid,They were very nice and professional,then they called the consul,he asked me ” are you sure you want to leave?”in a nice way..
Then i signed the official forms they send to washington and the oath .
it lasted 30 min total.
It was a walk in the park compared to every nightmares i have red about all these years.
So my advice is ,do not listen to the eternal professional worriers in this world,no one can stop you from renouncing and it’s smooth,if you encounter someone over zealous,just tell them ,you know the standard proceedure and you will report them to the DOS if they do not behave properly..
I’ll let you know when i receive the CLN
cheers and than you
@patrick, congratulations! Yes, it really should be as easy as that. I really don’t know why some embassies/consulates seem to make it so difficult and uncomfortable.
Patrick – congratulations 🙂
“a walk in the park ”
My experience also – only much more satisfying 🙂
@Patrick
Good to hear that everything went smoothly.
I had an easy time too, the Consulate official told me that she fully understood why people were renouncing!
I guess that you didnt need a social security number to renounce after all despite their form questions?
Now you can enjoy a real “walk in the park” free from US oppression.
Patrick – CONGRATULATIONS! my experience was also very positive. i renounced last year in Ottawa and already have my CLN. it was easy and no need for a professional to be with you.
Congratulations @Patrick. Good to hear it went smoothly. Guess State has finally figured out that you can relinquish/renounce without rancor. BTW I received my CLN much quicker than promised but still have yet to show it when crossing into the US.
Congratulations @Patrick. It’s nice to hear that the process is not as intimidating as our worst fears would have us believe. I hope that all of us, waiting for our turn, will also have a positive experience.
Hardly a “walk in the park” if $2350US happens to represent approximately 1/4 of your annual income. And that’s just for one family member.
@Maya L
Thank you.
@Patrick
Congratulations!
Congrats to Patrick, but it’s rather rude to state that no one should “listen to the worriers” when these people had a MUCH harsher experience. I find it helpful to have ALL possibilities to consider rather than the rose-colored only.
I was put through THREE appointments, & plenty of grilling, for a relinquishment & this was when it didn’t carry the fee– AND they still tried to get the $2350 from me, as well.
Good to know that there are some decent embassy’s, but many are still sh*tty.
Thanks for all answers to my questions about reduced SS benefits, especially thanks to Heidi. I will make my decision whether to renounce by the end of the year so I don’t have to file tax forms for next year.
The US CBT and forms mania will have very negative consequences for me for this and succeeding years. I was able to live with it in prior years, but changes in investments this year make it a very serious problem for me. I am still furious about the $2,350 and wonder if someone will start a class action lawsuit against this.
Over the last 20 years or so, the US CBT, which I always complied with, was the main factor that pressured me to terminate some profitable investments and to make some very bad ones. I’m bad enough at finance to begin with, I don’t need Big Brother making my decisions even more difficult.
@jane
my intent was not to be rude to “professional worriers”
it was to explain and clarify a few things for people (like myself when i first came into this great forum)that hear the worst possible things and nightmares about renouncing,if i had red my own message a few years back ,i’d have already renounced 4 y ago but i kept worrying and imagining the worst(irs coming at you,tax questions,pressure from the consulate officers and on and on).the reality is completly different,there’s a standard procedure ,guideline if you will,that the consulate officers must follow.
they have to make sure of only 2 things
1/ you renounce willfully
2/ you understand the consequences of losing your us status(possible visa requirements and on and on)
if you’re an adult that does not show signs of mental illness,that’s it.
So ANY other questions or types of pressure is outside the procedure and the officer should be called upon it right away and reported to the DOS,period.
The DOS reacts quickly so the consulate officers will be worried about that if you show you know the procedure.
No need to get nervous,just be calm and
@Jane and Patrick
I believe Jane reliquished some time ago (if there was no charge).
I think that most Embassies now are less combative and are more cognizant of the reasons why people are renouncing.
So the message is don’t be afraid of the process.
@Heidi
I relinquished three months prior to the change-over on IRS’s charging relinquishers as renouncers.
That, isn’t the point I was making. I was stating that just because one person has an “easy time” exiting does not negate those, such as myself & MANY others, who have been GRILLED and do not appreciate the dismissal & diminishing of our horrid experiences.
Right now, people renouncing are being subjected to ridiculous questions & experiences which, though should NOT happen, ARE happening. What one person goes through is not what ALL go through.
The feeling from those who have gone through a wringer, is to warn others of it. Not to dissuade them, but so they are informed. The whole procedure is already stressful enough– it’s good to be able to prepare if the embassy ends up being a bunch of jerks.
My post called out a “dismissing” of people who warned others, based on actual evidence, as “worriers”. That, was an unfair & irresponsible post. Likewise, your saying, “I think that most Embassies now are less combative and are more cognizant of the reasons why people are renouncing” is equally NOT any sort of guarantee and based on nothing but your experience. Meanwhile, there are a plethora of people who had a horrendous embassy experience.
Long story short- prepare for the worst & hope for the best– but don’t discount those who had the worst.
@Jane
That’s what most of us on Brock do, try to prepare and advise those who are nervous about renouncing after reading all the warnings from condors etc.
I am sorry you had such a difficult time, I expect they wanted to try to extract a fee from you but from most recents reports it seems that things are becoming easier now the crooks are charging for both relinquisher and renouncer.
Wherever the Embassy, people have to know that it is their right to renounce and to stand their ground..
No one is discounting your experience. I think Patrick was just relieved his went smoothly and tried to encourage others.
Enjoy your freedom.
They put me through hell. For hours.
And it couldn’t be about the money: I had to pay the $2350 to renlinquish or renounce. They made it very clear in the interview that if I just signed the oath and renounced they would “let me go in peace”. They even had everything prepared for a renouncement, including the letter, even though it was very clear to them before I got there that I had relinquished and that it was an open and shut case.
And it wasn’t about the time between relinquishment and appointment: about 3 months and only that long because they deleyed: I started my quest for an appointment on the same day I relinquished and they knew that.
They just wanted me to renounce, period. They only gave in and reprinted everything after they saw that I was not going to back down.
My son, on the other hand, was born dual and therefore only had the option of renouncing. His appointment was a short sweet “hello, pay here, sign here, thank you, goodbye” event.
It would be interesting if someone correlated the “badnees” of the experience with the type: relinquishment or renouncement.
Proof?
Because they did things the American way (half-assed) when they redid the paperwork, I am the proud owner of a CLN that says I lost my US- citizenship by signing an “oath of relinquishment” before a consular officer on the date that I relinquished (and not the day of my appointment).
@Unforgiven
Good for you for sticking up for your rights. The reward is that you may possibly have what is a truly unique CLN, i.e. one which states you signed the oath before a consular officer without even setting foot in a Consulate. Now that I think of it, that’s not a bad idea. For $2350 they should at least do house calls!
As far as I can tell the “badness” of the experience depends on two things:
1. The individual Consulate. They seem to vary widely as to procedure.
2. The individual consular officer. Some for whatever reason appear to take it personally, others are strictly professional. And a few don’t have a clue what they are doing.
Truly unique.
I did not sign an oath. The oath I supposedly signed does not exist. And the reference is to paragraph 2 (relinquishment by taking on a foreign citizenship with intent)
I remember the reports coming from Bern in the early days were that there were some very unpleasant consular officials doing the renunciations. Then they changed the staff and
the reports became much more agreeable.
I believe the emphasis is still to get you to renounce rather than relinquish especially if it is retroactive and avoids the tax filing requirements.