Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
We should really get together and go after MG for their scaremongering.
My “interview” was roughly an hour, much of that was me yelling at the consular employees. LOL. I was very angry that I was not allowed to relinquish, so had to renounce, which I did very loudly. To say I kicked up a fuss would be putting it mildly. : D. They couldn’t get me out of there fast enough, but I made sure all in the Toronto waiting room heard EXACTLY what was going on.
@ Plaxy,
Re:
Yes. They tried to go way off base with me. I did not cooperate and instead reported them. My complaint was resolved within 48 hours, 5 people (4 of whom had nothing to do with the abuse) apologised, and the embassy cleaned up their act as a result. I learned (only after I’d gone there) that they’d been doing interviews of up to 3 hours for over a year prior to my going there (apparently no one knew it was not standard procedure, so no one stood up to them). But after my complaint, the embassy cleaned up its act — and has since received positive ratings in Consulate Report Directory from people using it.
BTW, the embassy very apologetically offerred to process my CLN application if I returned there. However I wanted nothing further to do with them and chose to go to Toronto.
So, if anyone’s wondering why the example I gave of “critical questions” being things like “Do you want to pick up your CLN or should we mail it to you?” it’s because those questions are from my Toronto meeting. Toronto was typical. Ottawa was something people should not and do not have to put up with.
Wow, that’s so outrageous…
Cheers for not letting them get away with it.
The Mom:
“We should really get together and go after MG for their scaremongering.”
Would a complaint to Advertising Standards be worth a try?
The comparable board in my country has power to require the advertiser to correct inaccuracies.
Good on ya, pacifica. You just made my day!
Regarding Moodys, in addition to an advertising complaint, perhaps someone such as myself could pose as a potential client and see what sort of nonsense they spin, to report back.
Does lawyer-client privilege still apply if you don’t hire them, and record the conversation for eventual publication?
Interesting question. I think lawyer/client privilege refers to the fact that the lawyer can’t reveal what the client told them in confidence, not what the lawyer tells the client. I also think that any privilege will extend beyond the termination of the relationship. The lawyer is bound by the ethics and rules of the law society so it should be by the book; there shouldn’t be anything untoward or privileged about what he tells a client. If a lawyer tells his client anything outside of those ethical rules (like, for instance, advising him to do something illegal or assist him to do something illegal), the client should report him to the proper authority. I’m betting that, in practice, that rarely happens because the reason a client engages a lawyer in the first place is to get help in making a problem go away.
As far as recording goes, I seem to remember that technically its illegal to record anybody without their consent. It would almost be an entrapment scenario. Probably not a good idea, particularly if you are talking about recording a lawyer! Now, if you were to initiate a harmless email exchange…….
In the end, I bet that if you were to actually go in for a consultation, everything they tell you would basically just regurgitate what you can already read on their website. They seem like kind of a cookie-cutter operation.
@Pacifica
Hello
what do you mean exactly by” They tried to go way off base with me. “?
@ Patrick
Any questions not pertaining to voluntariness, intention, or clarification of an answer on the DS-4079, and trying to convince me that the deadline to apply for a relinquishment-based CLN had run out long ago (there is, and was, no such deadline) and insisting that I was at that moment still a US citizen (despite having a clear intentional relinquishing act and no connections at all to the US, as was very obvious from my DS-4079 and supporting documents).
I don’t recall offhand the questions they asked at my meeting as it was six years ago (I did write several down as verbatim as possible immediately after leaving the embassy and included them in my complaint letter, though).
When I repeatedly would not back down against their repeated contention that the (non-existent) deadline to apply for a CLN had expired, they did an about-face and agreed that there was no deadline and wanted me to come back for a 2 to 3 hour interview. I don’t know what questions they would have asked at that interview because I had no intention of attending it and wrote the complaint instead.
I wrote the complaint because I knew this was not proper procedure, which I why I think it’s *really important* that people know what is proper. After my experience, I learned that others, prior to my experience, actually had attended 2 or 3 hour interviews at this location – they didn’t know that they didn’t have to or that there was recourse available.
I’d like point out that this kind of behaviour is extremely rare, so people should not get anxious expecting this is going to happen to them. Reports in our Consulate Report Directory (in sidebar under “Important Info”) show that these meetings almost always run very smoothly and don’t take long (except for the wait time). Just approach it like you’re going to a regular business meeting – but it is good to familiarise yourself with the law and relevant sections of the DoS procedure manual (also in sidebar under “Important Info”), just in case.
I and other Brockers have contacted DoS HQ a number of times over the years regarding consulate problems in expatriation matters (most problems with consulates are not this egregious – more common, though still completely unacceptable, is they don’t know specific aspects of the law) and we’ve found DoS HQ to be very effective, and as mentioned in my earlier comment my complaint was resolved within 48 hours and led to the adoption of proper procedure and behaviour at this location. So, if you unfortunately run into a rogue consul or a clueless one, there is recourse and no need to put up with abuse or misinformation.
thanks Pacifica
i’m renouncing ,not relinquishing so there won’t be any problems,i know the proper procedure,sign the papers with staff after reviewing them ,take the oath and basta.
No tax or personal questions.
just paperwork.
@the Mom,
Would have loved to have you for company during my relinquishment appointment at the Toronto consulate!
Those Compliance Condor Industrial Complex members in Canada and their Expatriation Harvest initiatives and advertising campaigns (who for sure know better) certainly took the 2014 American Chamber of Commerce advice to heart (or maybe they inspired it);
“Here’s a hot tip for accountants and tax attorneys: now is a good time to develop specialized expertise in advising clients who may be seeking to expatriate from the United States. That demographic looks more and more like a real growth opportunity……”…….
https://www.uschamber.com/above-the-fold/exit-strategy-fatca-tax-law-keeps-pushing-americans-give-citizenship
Has anyone on this site renounced without filing? Does anyone know what the consequences of doing so would be? I am aware one would be a covered expatriate but not exactly sure what that would mean to one who renounced but did not file. Thank you.
Good comment.
I have recently renounced and have still to file.
Event as a covered expat, i would be below the net gain level, and I am not keen on disclosing my assets to what is now a foreign state to me.
Juliette,
Thanks for commenting. I cannot seem to find out what the consequences of being a covered expat would mean. No longer a us citizen but still wondering if they can “come after you in your own country”
@Tortured, not much. If you’ve never had an SSN they can’t trace you in any way. If you have one then even so they’re unlikely to do anything since they’re overworked, understaffed and under funded. If you haven’t filed anything they have no idea of whether you’re worth chasing or not.
One potential problem may be gaining entry to the US, but so far very, very few people have had this. It’s due to the Reed Amendment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration)
So far, so badly and vaguely worded they haven’t managed to come up with any way to implement it.
Thanks Medea,
No SSN but feel they can/will check the CLN to see if there has been any filings.
Again, I just wondered if you are a covered expat, can they come after any of your assets or put liens on property based on the fact one did not comply with tax filings. I would think not but never sure.
And how are they supposed to check without an SSN? You’re not in their system so pretty impossible to do. So they know your name and address? So what? They don’t know whether you own the property or not, who you may bank with, have investments with, etc. They can do jack.
@tortured
The only real consequence of being a covered expatriate is a punitive 40 percent tax on any gifts or bequests to a US taxpayer (i.e. a US resident or tax-compliant US person abroad). Otherwise nothing.
If you are outside the US and have no assets, income or other financial interests in the US, then there’s nothing the IRS can do to you, before or after renunciation.
No real point going through the exit paperwork on the tax front unless you can do something simple and quick that shows nothing owing, and it makes you sleep better to have filed it. Pointless otherwise.
PS Just so you’re aware, with one tiny exception, the US government has no ability to collect penalties, tax debts or fines outside its own borders. It cannot seize bank accounts or put liens on property in your country of residence. (The exception is US citizens living in Canada/Denmark but without Canadian/Danish citizenship – i.e. not dual citizens – and even here the US does nothing directly, the Canadian/Danish tax authorities collect on its behalf, and vice-versa in the US.)
@Tortured
This is a link to explain the problem of being a covered expat, as it relates to gifts and bequests to any US citizens heirs.
The onus is on those receiving ‘covered’ gifts to report them on the gift and inheritance tax, otherwise penalties are threatened.
https://hodgen.com/gifts-bequests-inheritances-and-expatriation/
I was also wondering if the irs can come after your assets in Canada once you have renounced. Unfortunately, my US accountants have been supplying the irs with all of my bank accounts, etc. since 2008. I renounced last year, am a canadian citizen, and will need to file my US 1040 plus corp forms, 1040NR and the 8854 showing all the past information. Fortunately, my company year end is july and i just might get out of not declaring the “transition tax” on my retained earnings. In hindsight, i should have got rid of all my assets in 2008 and renounced then. unfortunately, i didn’t find the Brock site until 2010.
@lioness
At present the US government has no ability to touch your assets in Canada, either before you renounce (provided that you are a Canadian citizen) or after. So file whatever you feel the need to file for but for god’s sake don’t send the IRS any money.
@Nononymous thanks for the info. will do, they wont get a cent from me. i refuse to pay any more money to the condors or the IRS!
The idea that the US can touch Canadian assets is a common misconception that unfortunately has lead many people into compliance when they could easily have avoided the whole mess by refusing to file. Nor is it necessary to become compliant in order to renounce.