Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@valentina if you ever lose the bookmark you’ll find the link under the Important Information section on the righthand side of the screen.
valentina, I can’t recall where you are, but it does depend on the city.
If you’re in Calgary, I’ll just mention that for my 18yo son and for myself, we had to wait about 4 months from the time of sending in documents by email until receiving their email with notification of our appointments (which was another 8 months). This was my timeline:
: Early May 2016: requested appointment by email to U.S. Consulate in Calgary
:: Next day: reply letting me know that scheduling/prelim paperwork are now centralized at the consulate in Vancouver and that I should redirect my request to the Vancouver email address
:: Same day: sent email to U.S. Consulate in Vancouver, had reply requesting documentation to be sent them by email, sent them everything they requested on the same day
:: Early Sept 2016: email with notification of appointment in late April 2017
:: Late April 2017 appointment at Calgary consulate
:: Early May 2017 (within two weeks): CLN received
And yes, bring along MORE paperwork. Much better to have too much that you don’t/won’t need than to show up missing something that you DO need : ) .
The 8854 — Mailing to Philadelphia: Two weeks before June 15th, we figured it would be safe to mail the 8854 to Philadelphia (i.e., the zipcode address) by Canada Xpresspost. Three business day mailing with tracking for about $27. Well, one week later, tracking on both CDN and US post office sites showed no progress since crossing the border. We phoned Canada Post and found they can see more detail than is shown in the on-line tracking. The envelope has been in Customs all week. Good grief. I had been concerned about speed and tracking; a delay at Customs for an envelope addressed to the Treasury Dept./IRS hadn’t even occurred to me! Meanwhile, the tax forms with the original 8854 got to Austin overnight by Fed Ex, well ahead of June 15th. And, hopefully, the extension form 4868 filed a couple of months ago will give the Philadelphia envelope time enough to get there, because, apparently, Customs can hold onto things for a month or more. I’m thinking that regular mail would have been better than Xpresspost.
@canoe
What a nuisance, however I think it’s the postmark on your receipt that counts as the day it’s mailed and as you said, you got an extension. My form 8854 took 9 days to arrive in March using international tracked. It might not necessarily still be in customs. Mail from abroad to the US arrives at an ISC center (international service centers) and can take a while sometimes to move to the next sorting center which for my formm 8854 was Flushing NY, then Philadelphia, For Philadelphia, it is generally the NY International Service Center and that is notorious for being slow sometimes.
Have you tried tracking your parcel direct on usps.com? That gives more up to date info. Not always possible that a tracking number works there but if it does, usps.com gives the best updates for whereabouts.
@ UK Rose — The tracking number works on both the Canada Post and USPS sites, also on Packagetrakr website where you can track all sorts of postal and delivery methods. It was from yesterday’s phone call to Canada Post where we learned it was still at Customs; that didn’t show on the websites. It has a few days before the 15th, so may make it yet. Aiming for the 15th was partly just to get these submissions finished before both spring and summer are gone by, and partly because we didn’t have tracking on the 4868, so I’m just assuming that form got there.
I re-read Phil Hodgen’s piece on mailing the 8854. He reminds that one piece of back-up evidence is that the 8854 to Philadelphia is a copy, and you can FedEx (and track) the tax return with the original 8854 to a street address. Sending by Fed Ex is comforting. He also talks about the postmark, though USPS.
https://hodgen.com/you-cant-file-form-8854-via-fedex-or-ups/
Phil also suggests Fedex to a trusted friend who can then mail to Philadelphia via USPS with tracking. How bizarre the thing is.
The IRS website states:
“Revenue Ruling 2002-23, 2002-18 IRB 811 provides that federal tax returns mailed by taxpayers in foreign countries will be accepted as timely filed if they bear an official postmark dated on or before midnight of the last date prescribed for filing, including any extension of time for such filing.”
It might have been overkill but I also took a digital photo of my form 8854 envelope with the stamp and tracking label attached on before the post office assistant took it away over the counter for good. I got a very clear picture of the date.
and of course one should always save and keep postal registered and courier receipts in a safe place.
@canoe, I did the same as you for my main tax return, courier service next day delivery. and I also read the piece by Phil Hodgen’s advising that.
There does come a point when enough has to be enough and after one has done their best to follow the instructions, one has to stop the worry and over thinking the issue. Time to start living free.
@ DoD. When I read that awhile back, I couldn’t figure out the difference between FedEx-ing to a friend in the US, who would would then re-post by USPS with tracking, and sending from here with tracking. It IS bizarre. Just give people a street address.
We’re e-filing ours for the first time.
@ UK Rose — Thank you for that reference about mailing from foreign countries. As for taking digital photos of the addressed envelope along with the receipt and tracking label, we did the same thing. My husband had seen an eBay seller do that at the post office, and it seemed a good idea for extra proof for this purpose, too. And yes, there comes a point when enough has to be enough.
I am totally new to this process, but I am trying to figure out how to wade through all this information & the best way to go about renouncing.
I am currently up to date with filing the last 4 years of taxes, and will be having mine done this year for a small fee, but after reading about all the exit tax implications on larger pensions (which mine is not yet) and houses (which I don’t own yet) I feel it’s best to renounce.
so #1) I’m still confused about whether it’s easier to relinquish my citizenship (which I believe I may be able to) or just renounce it
#2)if I should get some kind of an immigration lawyer to consult on this
and #3) if you need legal assistance prior to an appointment with the consulate/prior to actually renouncing in order to get all documentation in order
Any other tips on what to do/how to proceed would be welcome. I’m really only able to renounce in Toronto…perhaps Ottawa so, I realize there can be quite a wait. Thanks!
Maybe someone will correct me, but it seems that for tax purposes it makes little difference whether you renounce or relinquish since the time frame for the process from request to receiving the certificate of loss of nationality is much the same and the fee is the same. Relinquishment claims are ocasionally rejected by the State Department in which case you would have to submit a new application to renounce. Renouncing would likely be easier or more straightforward in your case. Most people will not need any legal assistance to renounce. Getting the papers in order to renounce is not too onerous and does not include any aspect of taxes. It sounds like your net worth is less than $2million even with the pension, and you have been filing regularly, so you won’t need much in the way of tax advice. If you think your net worth could exceed $2 million as of the date of renunciation then tax advice prior to renunciation might suggest ways to reduce net worth to the magic number, e.g. gifting to spouse.
@Elizabeth, there’s absolutely no need for a lawyer as the renunciation process is quite straightforward. You’ll need the following (this from the US Embassy in Bern website, but it’ll probably be the same elsewhere):
•U.S. Birth Certificate (copy sufficient) or U.S. Consular Report of Birth Abroad (original required).
•Bio-page of your most recent U.S. passport.
•Bio-pages of all current foreign passports.
•U.S. Certificate of Naturalization (If applicable)
•U.S. Certificates of Citizenship (If applicable)
The embassy/consulate will also send you these two forms to be filled in and returned to them.
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4080.pdf
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4081.pdf
You may also be asked to fill in and return one of these:
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4079.pdf
And that’s it as far as paperwork is concerned.
The embassy/consulate will notify you of your appointment date in due time, you go along, check the paperwork with them to make sure it’s details are correct, pay the fee and swear the Oath in front of the Consul or Vice Consul, sign both the Oath and the Statement of Understanding and that’s it – done. You’re no longer an American.
A relinquishment will follow pretty much the same process so really up to you how you want to tackle it. Have a read of the relevant entries in the Consular Directory Report for Toronto and Ottawa to see which would work better for you.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
I don’t think these days going for a relinquishment really helps you much. As fn0 says the timeframe and cost are the same. The only possible advantage is if you committed an expatriating act such as naturalising in another country many years ago in which case you might not need to file any US tax returns. The 8854 form says:
“Date of relinquishment of U.S. citizenship.
You are considered to have relinquished your U.S. citizenship on the earliest of the following dates.
1. The date you renounced your U.S. citizenship before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States (provided that the voluntary renouncement was later confirmed by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality).
2. The date you furnished to the State Department a signed statement of your voluntary relinquishment of a U.S. nationality confirming the performance of an expatriating act (provided that the voluntary relinquishment was later confirmed by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality).
3. The date the State Department issued a certificate of loss of nationality.
4. The date a U.S. court canceled your certificate of naturalization.”
https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i8854/ar01.html#d0e52
So unless you naturalised or performed some documented expatriating act before 2004 which would get you out of any filing obligations I can’t really see the point of opting for a relinquishment. You’re already up to date with your taxes so wouldn’t benefit from going for a relinquishment over a renunciation.
They are not allowed to ask you about your US tax situation. All they can do is remind you that you may have US filing obligations you should deal with.
If you have more questions then ask. We’re here to help and support you through the maze.
Elizabeth. No lawyer needed. E mail CanadaCLNinquiries@state.gov. and take it from there. We will help with any forms. Renouncing is easier.
@fn0 @DoD @Medea Fleecestealer
Thank you for all your help. I just wasn’t sure if it mattered whether I renounced or relinquished. I think if I had wanted to I would have qualified for a relinquishment and not had to streamline and be up to date with my taxes, but since I have done so, you’re right it doesn’t seem necessary.
I’m glad I don’t need a lawyer, again I didn’t think so, but have been on a number of forums where people suggested they needed them for assistance. I will look into the 2 consulates and hopefully will have this over and done with soon!
@Elizabeth, maybe if you have a relinquishment claim that isn’t that clearcut you might need a lawyer’s help, but for a renunciation all you will do is waste your money. It’s your right under the US Constitution to renounce your citizenship if you want to and no one can stop you doing so unless they think you’re being coerced for some reason or are mentally unable to understand what you’re doing. As said the process is straightforward so what can a lawyer bring to it? Apply, get forms and fill in, return to embassy/consulate, go on appointment date, check paperwork, sign fee, swear and sign documents, done. Nothing there that a lawyer could help you with really except be an extra witness to your oathtaking – but that’s not necessary. The Consul/Vice Consul does that and one is enough.
And although the embassy/consulate will tell you that final approval will come from the State Department, unless they have reason to believe you’re being coerced or are mentally unable to understand, the deed is done, State Department approval is just a formality. The minute you swear the Oath you’re no longer an American. The CLN will have your renunciation appointment date at the embassy as proof.
That was quick! My CLN date is scheduled for August 14th, which is approximately a 3 month delay between request for appointment and actual appointment. It is at the Vancouver Consulate.
@Rebecca – Thanks for the timeline! 🙂
@Medea Fleecestealer
Oops..I forgot to thank you for the handy link to the Consulate Directory Report. I’m keeping a timeline as well since I want to contribute my experience to the directory too when this ordeal has been completed.
@valentina, no problem and congrats on the quickish appointment date. Guess things are a bit quicker in the summer due to people being on vacation so not so many looking to make appointments then. Or they may have had a cancellation and were able to slot you in.
valentina, wonderful news! I hope this speediness holds true not just for Vancouver but also for everywhere else.
Elizabeth,
1) Renounce, for all the reasons everyone else has given
2) NO!
3) NO!
and you didn’t ask, but strike “streamlined” from your vocabulary. It’s more harmful than helpful.
Also, you don’t need any forum other than Isaac Brock. In our family, my 18yo daughter (last year), I (two months ago), and my teenage son (this month) have all renounced, with lots of help and handholding from all the wonderful people here.
There have been no known cases of bad outcomes from anyone doing ‘streamlined’. Streamlined is the official means for non-compliant expats to become compliant. I know several people, including myself, who have been thru streamlined. I don’t understand why this notion of streamlined being bad keeps resurfacing.
Having said that, AFAIK, there have also been no known cases of bad outcomes from doing a ‘quiet disclosure’. So pick your poison and proceed (assuming the goal is to become compliant).
“I don’t understand why this notion of streamlined being bad keeps resurfacing.”
“So pick your poison…”
Poison or bitter pill?
“I don’t understand why this notion of streamlined being bad keeps resurfacing.”
How much does it cost?
@Bubblebustin, I disagree. Streamlined worked for me, okay I didn’t have much to declare anyway, but for those of us not in compliance before we renounce it’s a good idea, especially if I recall correctly the IRS will no longer accept quiet disclosures without a lot of scrutinity/investigation. If Streamlined hadn’t existed I may have been stuck filing US returns for 5 years before I could renounce just to be compliant. Yes, I could have just not filed, but then I would have been stuck when PostFinance here in Switzerland wanted proof that I was in a Voluntary Disclosure program. If I hadn’t been able to provide that, it’s likely the account would have been closed.
@Japan T, no one can tell you a definite figure because it depends entirely on what you as an individual need to do tax-wise. If your accounts are complicated it’ll be expensive, if simple then it’ll be less. If you have an accountant ask them to give you a rough idea of what it would cost for you.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/u-s-taxpayers-residing-outside-the-united-states
“If you have an accountant ask them to give you a rough idea of what it would cost for you.”
There lies the rub. Accounts are for rich people. Unless they work for free, that is out of the question for me.