Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Your comment is interesting, Japan T. Makes one wonder the processes in all countries for similar identification.
From US Homeland Security:
REAL ID Frequently Asked Questions for the Public: https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs
REAL ID Enforcement in Brief: https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-enforcement-brief
REAL ID and You, Rumor Control: https://www.dhs.gov/real-id-and-you-rumor-control#
Speculation: Would it eventually be tied together, world-wide, similar to everyone’s financial information with OECD / CRS (https://www.oecd.org/ctp/exchange-of-tax-information/implementation-handbook-standard-for-automatic-exchange-of-financial-information-in-tax-matters.pdf)?
National Identify has been discussed in the past in Canada’s Parliament.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=1031456
Is this something that Canada would eventually mesh with the US (as the Beyond the Border initiative, http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/brdr-strtgs/bynd-th-brdr/index-en.aspx)?
Just wondering.
@Calgary
I `m wondering if more countries forbid their citizens to be duals, if they can`t help some expats with such a law which counteracts american laws in a less directly confrontational way….. ? ? ?
Polly,
Speaking for my family only, all but one who has been able to renounce and has a CLN in possession to show to our local Canadian *foreign financial institutions*, that is a solution that would solve the problem of my Canadian-born son (and others like him in other families) not being able to also (as the rest of his/her family) renounce because of a lack of requisite mental capacity — and their parent, guardian or trustee unable to act on their behalf. In fact, it may be the only kind of solution for making our Canadian life one that is normal. We’d be the first in line for my son to lose his US-deemed US citizenship and entrapment into all that means, which is ABSURD for him and this family. (He and his accounts that I hold for him were identified in the FBARs and US tax compliance forms I completed for my renunciation and subsequent 8854 filing and receipt of my CLN.)
@Polly
“That was what happened to this person. He became german back in the 80s in order to open a law practise and so his US passport was taken away from him by the americans who said you can’t be both back then. He even tried to get it back and was refused! He has been living as a german ever since.
So fast track to today – and now seeing that he is a lawyer – he can`t have 2 passports according to GERMAN law. So then- has he been bestowed an american passport again during the 1990s or not?
At any rate- this is something that he needs to clarify for himself. As it is, he could be getting into trouble on both sides of the fence, because if he is forced to accept that he is american again ( against his will today) then the germans might tell him to close his offices?”
If the US kept a record of the fact that he tried to regain his citizenship when he was found out he’d lost it, he’ll have trouble making a case that he intended to relinquish US citizenship when he became German. As a lawyer, the wisest course of action would be to go on sabbatical until he sorts all this out, otherwise he might well risk getting disbarred. Hopefully, he’s already be old enough to retire since he was already an established lawyer in the 1980s.
@Polly
“I `m wondering if more countries forbid their citizens to be duals, if they can`t help some expats with such a law which counteracts american laws in a less directly confrontational way….. ? ? ?”
That wouldn’t help. Making dual citizenship illegal is only really possible to apply to citizens who become naturalized citizens of other countries.
For example, say a German woman moves to Canada as an adult, goes on to have children, and eventually becomes a Canadian. The German government rescinds her citizenship (because she has pledged allegiance to another nation, which is deemed an expatriating act) but her children continue to have dual German-Canadian citizenship.
Thanks Calgary. The harsh words below are not directed at you but to those who are yet in denial.
While I am not up to speed on the Real Id in the States, It has been reported that residents of certain states have been denied entry into certain Federal buildings. The law may or may not support these refusals but they happen none the less. (Again, I have a lot of experience with being forced to comply with rules and laws that just plain don’t exist; in the Navy, at a state University and here in Japan). Regardless, a national ID is inconsistant with the ideals of the founding of the nation. The “myths” on the DHS website remind me of similar for Obamacare which turned out not to be myths.
I feel the My Number system and its history is instructive. The Japanese gov. tried to set this up a decade or so ago but mayors and ward bosses told their residents to just throw them away. We did and that was the end of it…..until last year.
While reported to be voluntary for individuals until some years into the future, it is currently compulsary for employers if they want to enjoy certain tax conciderations. So now, my employers, including mom and pop language schools to huge multinational corporations have my My Number on file. A former employer is harrassing me to provide mine for their tax filings at the end of this year. Everyone in Japan must have and use their My Number for many basic transactions, including getting a reduction of sales tax on groceries (currently on hold) and this number and all info attached to it is stored at each location reagardless of the level or existance of their net security.
Right now, not in the future, RIGHT Fing NOW!, ALL my pay, tax, automatic disbursements, banking information, members of my family/houshold, my address, money sent and received via wire transfers and International Postal Money Orders are all conected through my My Number and in that system. This number is connected to to my immigration status because my employers and past employers are already collecting this information. I have provided photocopies of my foreign resident card (upon which is my full name, my nationality, visia status, address and color photo) and my My Number card together on a single form to several of my employers for them to keep in whatever fashion they care to. Failure to provide this information results in loss of employment. The US WILL, not might, not could but WILL have all they need and could possibly want on every person they claim as a US person. Employers are providing all this information to the Japanese government, already correlated on neat liitle forms.
The J government only needs to take the My Numbers that are provided on the same page as a US passport and enter it into the family registry system to see with whom we live and are related to and they got the whole ball of wax ready to be transfered to or stolen by anyone interested in knowing where the childeren of US citizens in Japan attend school.
This is no longer theory. It is not just the plot of several dystopian movies. It is the here and now reality for many and will only spread.
Regardless of reported intent, if it can be abused, it will be abused. Victims of abuse of this system will have no recourse.
Just as other countries are now instituting their own versions of FATCA, it is folly to believe that other nations will not in the not so distant future implement their own versions of the My Number system.
@Karen
Believe it or not, I had to ask them– “don’t you need this”? Otherwise, they wouldn’t have taken it off me…That entire exchange was bizarre.
@Japan T
I can understand why you’re upset, but none of these recent developments should come as a surprise. You know that’s going to be impossible to live under the radar, yet you refuse to backfile your taxes and FBARs. Since you seem to be short on time, but not tight for money — you mentioned your wife could support the family on just her income — why not hire an accountant to help you sort matters out?
Yes, I realize it’s an invasion of your privacy, of your wife’s privacy, and you shouldn’t have to jump through these hoops, etc., but that’s the only way to guarantee that you can continue to live in Japan with your family. Your principles are all well and good, but you’re playing a game of chicken with the USG that you could lead to you losing EVERYTHING — your family, your passport, and your permanent resident visa.
I don’t refuse to back file, I can’t. I am hurting for time and money. I lost two of my several positions this year amounting to half my income. I may have to ask for a “loan” for my wife to make my next local tax payment due at the end of next month, a month of only six working days for me. If I don’t find more hours before September, my child gets sent home from daycare, there being no reason, in the mind of the quota keepers, for a child with one parent working only part time to be in daycare.
No, it is not at all a surprise to me. I warned of this very thing way back when the navy was pushing direct deposit on us over twenty years ago. So, we just accept it? It is not only an invasion of privacy. PIN, account numbers, student rosters and ID numbers are to be kept safe for SECURITY reasons.
Do I really need to spell out the security risks of having ALL private information available in single, multiple locations around the world? Why are children kidnapped? Whose children are kidnapped? How are various organized crime and terrorists around the world raising funds? How about finding victims?
No, like Tina in Allison Christians’ presentation, there is no happy ending, there is no way out. If my child is kidnapped or we are killed by terrorist (while very real concerns today, I use these more for illustration believing more mundane ID theft or fraud to be more likely events in my case) it will be because an abusive government obtained this info through less than legal means and not because I delivered my family up to them to be victimized.
The longer I wait, the longer before the end. I jump up now and alert thrm to my existsnce, then from that point on we are on everone’s radar.
@Wearcoaster
Yeah thats the real twist here. The GERMAN government would give him a hard time if America had restored his US citizenship. I don`t know what he will do. And I had never heard of a selective system where certain professions don`t allow for duals ( except for government jobs.)
@Polly, well if it turns out they have then he’d need to apply for a backdated relinquishment CLN I guess. The question is though how does he find out? Just because a US border guard may hassle him about his German passport, it doesn’t mean he actually has the citizenship back.
I’m not sure he isn’t making more of this than is necessary. He has his certificate of German citizenship I assume. That’s an expatriating act, the law was clear at the time and he hasn’t lived as an American since. He IS German whether the Americans play around with their laws or not. A certified copy of his German citizenship certificate should be enough to shut them up and he can quote the law in 1980 when he gained the certificate. I doubt any border guard is going to know about the reversal of the law in 1990.
Not much help, but a UN report from 2013 (“Human rights and arbitrary deprivation of nationality”, A/HRC/25/28) at least identifies this (automatic attribution of nationality without consent) as a problem:
https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G13/190/38/PDF/G1319038.pdf?OpenElement
Seems to me that what many here say can’t or doesn’t happen must be happening somewhere.
That UN report is an interesting document, particularly the sections on due process (rather than arbitrary revocation of nationality leading to statelessness) and the importance of being able to “produce or procure” evidence of nationality.
It would seem quite logical to amplify this to include a section on the importance of due process (rather than the arbitrary imposition of unwanted nationality purely on outdate jus soli / jus sanguinis grounds), and a section on the importance of being able to “produce or procure” evidence of non-nationality (i.e., not evidence of loss of nationality; children should have the right to refuse to accept forced nationality, rather than being required to “lose” it and document the loss.)
Citizenship still beats serfdom, in my view.
In regards to the US, I’m not sure there is much difference. Everything is so over regulated that you need government permission to just about anything.
Whereas if we were all serfs, the question of being granted permission to do anything other than our feudal duty would never arise.
Citizenship varies from nation to nation. Personally I value my UK citizenship and am glad to be rid of my U.S. citizenship, but I’d rather be a U.S. citizen than a serf.
Good point though I wonder if serfs were truly unable to ask to do anything, but point well taken. Personally, I see little value in it. If the nation one is a citizen will not defend you against outrageous claims by another nation yet expects to pay for that which they will not provide, I’d rather be stateless. Not the same as serfdom, true shows my current thoughts on citizenship.
I sympathize, JapanT. I hope you find a way out of your dilemma.
I’m not commenting on this thread … forgive me … but am uncertain how to start a new one … (Please forgive my ignorance.)
I was in a panic over the issue of Renouncement last year and so many here were kind in their help and advice to me. I live in London and the waiting lists here are long (although not as long as currently in Dublin, Paris and Berlin.) I was finally able to get a much appreciated appointment at the American Embassy in Slovakia and renounced on 11th December of last year. I had been away in France for a few weeks and when I came back just now I found my CLN in an envelope on the floor with all my other post. I don’t know why but I thought it would be a rather more grand document than the simple A4 typed page … (especially given what one paid for it) … but really I don’t care what it looks like … just as long as I have it .. and it is legitimate. For the record, the return for me was just a tad over eight months.
Having fulfilled all my tax responsibilities I am now free and can entirely move on from this issue. My final act will be to write a couple of articles for US ex-pat organisations in the UK. I sincerely feel there should be more immediate information more readily available to people when they first meet their concerns away from those who have vested interests (i.e., lawyers, accountants, etc.). No one had recommended this wonderful website – which proved such a boon – when I first became concerned. I will I promise.
Again, I cannot thank ALL here for your collective help and support. It has been – and continues to be – life enriching; an inspiration.
Thank you.
@Meunier
Congratulations on receiving your CLN and your freedom!
@Meunier
Congrstulations!
@iota
So do I.
Thanks.
@Meunier, good news and congratulations! What a nice thing to come home to.
Can anyone give me any advice on appealing a U.S. State Department’s refusal to accept/acknowledge a prior relinquishment? All I have is an address but I have no idea what the procedure is or how long it takes and have no other contact information. For example, am I simply just supposed to write them a letter asking for an appeal and send all the information in that letter?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Background:
I posted on this blog a few months ago to obtain information on trying to get a back dated CLN but they are refusing and essentially now are imposing their citizenship on me. On the advice of an accountant I went through the streamlined process because he indicated that was the only way I could get my CLN. Their reasoning was that I didn’t prove that my intent was to relinquish and have paid taxes which is inconsistent withing having relinquished. After all my life never paying taxes to the U.S. that is their reasoning even though I explained why I did the three years of taxes. I am guessing that the real reason they are denying my CLN is because it would be back dated before having to file any additional tax forms.