Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Duke of Devon says
On the (bad and selfish) advice of an accountant, I was told I had to go through the streamlined process in order to get a CLN because I didn’t know to get one when I relinquished. So I went to the Quebec consulate to apply for a back dated CLN. And really, the two years of taxes isn’t that big of a deal, it’s more being subjected to a foreign country’s laws and being forced to endure this liability for two more years. There is absolutely no benefit to having U.S. citizenship for me so if they deny my CLN I will have to make a decision of whether I want to fight/appeal or ‘take’ the BS and renounce.
@Japan T
“How did we go from our beginning to this?”
If you want some unsolicited but heartfelt advice, I’d recommend you swallow your pride and let your wife pay all the bills — you are partners, after all, and nothing is as important as making sure that you can stay in Japan with your family — so you can quit your jobs and focus on doing what you need to do to get Japanese citizenship, expatriate, and make a clean break from the USG. (If getting Japanese citizenship is not an option for whatever reason, then at least backfile your taxes and FBARs so that you don’t have to live with the fear of having your passport revoked and getting deported.)
I know, I know, easier said than done. But you know as well as I do that you really have no choice; some time between now and when you renew your passport, the sh*t is going to hit the fan so it’s best to be proactive.
@WestCoaster
True but, the FBAR fines are out of this world and filing them probably requires me to break Japanese law, and then where will I be? Near as I can learn, my FBAR fines are a minimum of $300,000 if I am classified in unwilling noncompliance. $300,000 + $20,000 or greater for Japan health care (ha!) back payments + ¥$¥$¥$¥ accounting fees and breaking Japanese law to get “squared away” is a mighty steep bill to foist upon one’ spouse.
Pride is not an issue, responsibility is the issue. Not her responsibility to satisfy her husband’s far off native land’s lust for control. Beyond her ability anyway, so no point really even going down that road unless there are short cuts yet to be discovered.
Quitting my jobs to focus on meeting the requirements of JN and renouncing means my child gets booted out of day care, so that is a nonstarter.
Still searching for a way though every possible route I have found thus far has been blocked by one reality or another.
Although I do not at all like the idea of every member in the family having a different nationality, I am looking into trying for German nationality based upon my grand parents’. I am half German. Though as I think of it, despite my family saying so my entire life, I may not be actually “half” German. Regardless, both sides of my family and my surname came from Germany.
@Japan T
Just backfile the last three years of taxes and six years of FBARs quietly; at this point most Americans who live abroad can still do that without having to pay any penalties whatsoever. Alternatively, you can go through the official IRS Streamlined Foreign Offshore Procedure for US Expats.
http://www.usexpattaxhelp.com/unfiled-returns-expats-streamlined-process.php
As for all the other reasons you listed, they pale in comparison to you getting deported — that would have a far greater impact on your child than getting kicked out of daycare!
Here are the guidelines of whether you’d be entitled to German citizenship:
http://www.kanada.diplo.de/Vertretung/kanada/en/02/citizenship/determining__citizenship.html
Basically, what I’m saying is that the coast is as clear as it’s ever going to be. It’s not fair and it’s not right, but it is what it is.
@Japan T, be careful when considering applying for German citizenship. You may not be allowed to continue to hold your American citizenship and may have to renounce before finally getting German citizenship. Usuallly this applies when people apply for naturalisation, but check with the German embassy/consulate anyway to be absolutely sure it wouldn’t apply to you too when claiming citizenship by descent.
@WestCoaster
Getting kicked out of daycare in Japan effectively kills his chances for any kind of a decent future. It is possible this may change due to the fact that Japan does not have enough children thus lowering the entrance bar for “good” schools and thus “good” companies, but that is a very huge bet to be making. In short, getting kicked out of nursery school and having to spend all his time with a parent who is far from fluent in the language of his native land all but ensures the best he could hope for is being one of the working poor. Would you wish that for your child? Or would you make any sacrifice nessecary to remove as many barriers as possible to his future success in life?
I stopped filing my tax returns but I was unable to do comply without threat of financially devastating fines. If I can not file for one year, how do I file for 3?
Filing FBARs means I would be reporting my wife’s assets to a foreign government. My wife has an US TIN from two secondments she took part in in the past. Without the possibility of violating Japanese law by reporting a JN’s personal financial data to a foreign government, would put your spouse at risk by reporting them to the US? I have been told by non professionals and former professionals that reporting my wive’s assets to a foreign government may very well be in violation of Japanese law. Still looking into this.
In my mind, having a father in a local prison for choosing to violate the laws of one’s homeland is not preferable to having one’s father deported because he could not follow the laws of his homeland.
Rule number one for those residing overseas is to follow local law. Violating that rule pretty much kills my chances at gaining JN if the German route is closed.
And there still remains the safety issue of having all my family’s financial data in the hands of the criminally negligent US gov.. Might as well post everything on Facebook.
So, at a minimum I must learn the Requirements of Japanese citizenship (in detail), German citizenship, increase my Japanese language ability, complete several years of tax returns and more of FBARs, learn Japanese financial law as it pertains to FBARs before submitting them to FINCnet, come up with huge heaps of sums of money I have no way of obtaining and complete all this before either my passport is yanked or my bank accounts are closed while so busy without any of this that I am only getting 4 hours of sleep a night.
Suddenly 22 hours of assigned watches and duties a day aboard a US warship doesn’t sound so bad.
@JapanT
Forget german citizenship- will never happen and wont change anything. I honestly think you are skirting the main issue- and this is what you have to do. There is no escape. So WestCoaster`s advice is great- Let your wife help you. You can declare those taxes before giving up your US citizenship too, you know? Stay american and declare your taxes. Pay them. That will leave you an option of returning if all the other catastrophes happen that you talk about. But somehow I think you paralyse yourself with all this “worst outcome” talk.
I don’t owe any taxes to the US. The worst case scenario is having to sit down and work through another US tax return with the requirement last given to me by the IRS under threat of fines for any inaccuracies.
I realize that no one besides myself at IBS has received a letter from the IRS directing them to provide the exact dollar values for each individual payday with the threat of a $10,000 fine for each error or admission but I have. I can not see how getting back into the system without following their last instructions to me is any different from just ignoring to whole damned thing except that by doing so I am voluntarily putting myself on their radar earlier than they would find me on their own.
And I can not believe that it has been suggested that my wife, a Japanese national, pay off whatever a foreign country says her husband owes.
You people keep telling me that I must swim across the Atlantic now because in the future I will be required to swim across the Pacific.
Again,,I am reporting nothing to the US until I know for certain it doesn’t violate Japanese law. Are you really suggesting I violate Japanese law to satisfy US law? If so, how is that rational? Not talked about much here, but individuals passing on personal information on someone else to a third party is generally a big “no-no” even if it not a foreign government. Just ask the guy who sold Benese’s customer information to other Japanese companies. I think his prison sentence is three years on top of fines. Not the way to go.
@Medea Fleecestealer
Japan also does not allow dual citizenship. Once Japanese citizenship is obtained, I would have two years to complete the renounciation process. With wait times for appointments at US Embassies around the world just another big wrinkle in addition to all the hoops that must be jumped through.
@Japan T,
I cannot believe it is against Japanese law to report your wife’accounts on an FBAR. If you want to be safe, though, get her written permission to do so.
@foo if the account is in her name only and Japan T has no signing rights to it does it need reporting on a FBAR?
@Japan T, yes I thought Japan also didn’t allow dual citizenship. Still you need to investigate whether that would apply for German citizenship by descent and also whether the process would be quicker than trying for Japanese citizenship for you.
Regarding Japan law and FATCA read the IGA and see if that helps enlighten you.
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Statement-Japan-6-11-2013.pdf
The account I had was under my name but most of the money in it was hers. We both had signing authority. It was also linked to some of her assets and other accounts by way of automatic monthly transfers between them. While I may not have to report those linked accounts and assets, the US would be able to know of them through the account in my name.
I do not know if disclosing another person’s personal information to a third party violates Japanese law if the third party is a foreign government but I do know that allowing my students information to fall into the hands of a third party will get me in loads of hot water. Civil for certain, not sure about criminal but with the Benesse case I can’t see how it wouldn’t be.
While my thoughts on this really have no meaning, I can not see how it would not violate Japanese law to give private financial information to a third party, especially in light of the sentence of the guy who stole Bennese’s customers’ information. That wasn’t even financial info, just names and addresses.
Again, something I need to find out for certain before I do so.
But again, I am a three time victim of ID theft. Twice by the US gov. not taking as much care of the personal info entrusted to them as the gov. requires private institutions to take. The third time , which may have been linked to one of the other two, someone renewed my driver’s license with their face and address but all other information mine.
So far I have been isolated from most of the fall out of ID theft by living overseas. Putting my family at risk of having their private info leaked by a foreign government is not something to do lightly, regardless of it violating Japanese law or not. Have enough to worry about in that way with my local knuckleheads. At least there are far fewer people world wide who target USPs who can read Japanese than can read English.
@JT,
Then it was your account, legally, not your wife’s, so you are perfectly in the clear to report its existence to anybody whomsoever. If the IRS wants to find out what other accounts it may be linked to, they will ask the bank, and the issue of compliance with 個人情報 laws will be the bank’s problem, not yours.
@foo
That solves the legal issue but it really torques me that I am required to violate local law to satisfy US law if the situation calls for it.
Isn’t subornation of a crime a criminal act?
In my last post I wrote that the issue of possibly violating Japanese law was not the only issue with FBARs. The security issue of giving all such info to a gov. incapable of safeguarding all the data they had on the greater part of all its federal employees, including spies, should not be taken lightly.
Your wrote,
“If the IRS wants to find out what other accounts it may be linked to, they will ask the bank, and the issue of compliance with 個人情報 laws will be the bank’s problem, not yours.”
That is true only IF Japanese FIs do not do what FFIs all over the world are doing and close any accounts they might need to be reported to the IRS, any account that might be troublesome. Unless all the reports of banks closing accounts of USPS are false, this is s very real threat. Not reporting the account on a FBAR may not protect against banks closing down her accounts but if they do it won’t be because I reported it. Not reporting it will not trigger closing them. Reporting might.
JapanT -“That is true only IF Japanese FIs do not do what FFIs all over the world are doing and close any accounts they might need to be reported to the IRS, any account that might be troublesome. Unless all the reports of banks closing accounts of USPS are false, this is a very real threat.”
Here in the UK, and going by what was reported in the media, it seems that it was “deemed compliant” FIs which closed some US Persons accounts, in order not to have the expense of reporting.
Most FIs here don’t have “deemed compliant” status and have no choice but to incur the expense of FATCA reporting. They don’t have an incentive to close a US Person’s account. They just report it.
Japan T,
Agreed that it is a bad situation, with no perfect solutions, only least bad ones.
There are risks and threats no matter the path.
That said, doing nothing seems likely to lead to one of the least good outcomes, eventually.
You liken it to swimming the Atlantic. But you don’t have to swim it all at once. Do a few strokes, do the dead-man’s float for a while, do a few more strokes, etc. Break the mountainous task down into small manageable pieces, and do them when and as you can.
Everyone,
Thanks for the advice. I know you are trying to help. What I need is information that I can then shift through and use as it applies to my situation.
Although I do not think that my situation is overly complex, there are many details that you do not know. Here are some that may illustrate how recently offered advice does not fit my situation.
I am extremely fortunate to have my teaching positions at the universities that currently employ me. Years back when they hired me the requirement of a masters degree could be waved and was in my case. Department Heads of many universities no longer have that flexibility. Even friends I have who are in positions to hire teachers and they can’t offer me a position because a masters degree is now a rock solid requirement at their schools. Besides my child losing his spot in nursery school, I will not be able to go back to the schools I currently teach at nor any of the others I have knowledge of with out meeting the current requirements, without first getting a masters degree.
The threat of my child losing their seat in nursery school is very real and imminent. Despite the low birth rate, Japan has a severe shortage of nursery schools and day care facilities. We are extremely lucky to have been able to get our child in. While my wife was still pregnant, we went shopping for nursery schools and eventually applied to several. While at an information meeting at what would become ‘our’ school we met two other families who were expecting around the same time we were. All three children are now 2 and 1/2 years old. One family has STILL not been able to find a place for their child! Imagine the financial strain that family must be under with the mother’s maternity leave turning into a lost job. The other family landed a spot for their child a year ago, one year after our child started school. If either of these had happened to us, I would be out of work and not able to return.
Periodically, twice a year I think, my wife and I must report the number of hours we spend at work and how long the commute is for each day of the week, and our earnings for the three months preceding the application for our son to attend nursery school. Although approval is much easier once in the system, if either of us do not work the minimum hours, our child will not be accepted the next semester and a child on the waiting list gets his spot.
Next is the absolute importance of a college degree in Japan and the narrow path to one. If you have not had the opportunity of being around very young children of the same age but with different education status, let me tell you that the development of an 18 month old who has spent 12 of those going to nursery school is light years beyond that of children of the same age who sat home all day with mom or grandma. Same at two and two and a half years old.
Getting a “good” job requires graduating from a “good” university which I turn requires attending classes at good high school, jr. High school, elementary school and even a good kindergarten. Which child do you think has the better shot at that all important first gate of a good kindergarten, the child with 4 and 1/2 years of education or the one siting at home with dad you does not even speak the local language very well and is now all but illiterate in it?
Now, for the shocker of shockers. I have many Japanese friends. Most are not a very happy lot, unless they are drunk, which is often. Of the few, very few I know who are happy, the happiest is a trash collector. Years ago now, long before we had a child on the way, I told me wife that if we ever have children I want them to be garbage collectors. Horrified, my wife asked why on earth would I want Our children to be garbage collectors. “Because the happiest of the very few happy Japanese men I know is a trash collector. All the ERAI salary men I know are just about miserable. Besides, we won’t have to worry about entrance exam hell (that’s what the Japanese call it) nor have to pay for cram schools and college.” Then my wife told me that in Japan, trash collectors work for the government and thus must graduate from a university as one must be a university grad to work for most governments, even local. To be a garbage man in Japan, one must have a college degree!
If my child misses out on his chance to get into a good kindergarten, he can not even get a job as a garbage collector.
Changing from my multiple employees to one full time employer means my 2 and 1/2 year old has to go to school and back on his own. I can not start work until 9 am two days a week and 10 am the other three nor work past 4 pm three days a week without causing my wife to work fewer than the minimum required for her flex time schedule. My available hours are not enough for a full time position.
These are the main reasons why we are locked into our schedules with absolutely no wiggle room. Any change causes problems that one not so situated apparently has difficulty understanding. There is nothing else left for me to quit or give up to take care of anything, especially tax returns for a far off land. It’s all ahead full and hope no rouge wave pushes us off course with no end in sight. And we ARE the lucky ones.
@Japan T
Despite the additional information you’ve shared about your situation, I stand by my advice. That said, it’s your life and I wish you well.
@japanT
Honestly- you are starting to sound kinda crazy. Just get on with it. The rest will fall into place. You cannot honestly believe that the future of your child will depend on if you pay your american taxes or not? Then leave everything as it is and PAY THEM. Get into streamlined. Do it. Another possibility would be to talk to a lawyer. Not hire one but TALK to one. So you finally have some information to work with. Because all else- just sitting there and complaining- will only get you into worse trouble- it seems to me. This is not going to blow over. So for God`s sake- DO something.
But being obstinate just because this is an injustice is not the answer to this problem. You don`t live in Canada and cannot hide there. This is not the time to let your rebellious adolescent side get the better of you. As an adult you have to take responsibility.
@ Japan T
I have deep sympathy for you being locked in your Japanese schedule box so please don’t think I’m being flippant when I say maybe you and your wife could at least consider moving to a country with a higher “Gross National Happiness Index” and much less rigid life schedules. From what you describe, I could not survive in Japan because I’m not ambitious, hate testing or privacy probing of any kind and actually prefer to live a frugal lifestyle, even though I suppose there’s no need to be quite so frugal since I have an inheritance from my Canadian-only parents which continues to sit dormant in a savings account and earns practically zilch in interest. The way things are going it won’t be long before I’ll be paying the bank to keep my inheritance and if they force the “cashless society” on us then every withdrawal and its destination will be scrutinized so they can pounce upon me with any suspicion that I might be an “evil doer”. Cripes, it may be me looking for another country in a few years because look at the box walls they are building around all of us right here, right now. Wonder if there’s an island for sale in the southern hemisphere (must consider the ocean currents and Fukushima radiation) which we who value freedom and treasure the right to pursue happiness could purchase and build our own little nation? The goal would be to have a high GNHI and no usurious, life-sucking debt. Anyway, do the best you can with what you’ve got … and I’m rootin’ for ya.
@Japan T,
Can you carve out 5 minutes a day to work on the paperwork? That will get you moving forward. It may take a year to get caught up, but you probably have at least a year to deal with this. You don’t have 10 years; you have until your passport is next up for renewal.
5 minutes a day. Starting today.
Gambare!
@dt804a
My repeat post was aimed at present day relinquishers/renunciants – I should make that explicit.
I believe if you expatriated prior to June 4, 2004, then you have nothing to be concerned about, and all you have to do is get your backdated CLN (which you probably have if you renounced). However, IANAL, so do your own due diligence.
See:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different
http://www.robertsandholland.com/siteFiles/News/03-05-13_Expats%20Live%20in%20Fear_MJM.pdf
https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax
ReginaRelinquisher If your relinquishing act was before June 2004 you have no filing obligation. Would you mind saying how long it took to get an appointment in Quebec city? Thanks
@JapanT
I remember you having the same discussion with all here at least a year ago and you put forward all the hurdles you would have to jump to free yourself. You seem to be an intelligent man and know what you need to do. Save the time you spend on Brock and put it towards obtaining you freedom.
Perhaps you are waiting for a change in the US
administration and a change in policy but the likelyhood is that you would be buggered before this ever took place. Your life is in Japan, go for it. We all wish you well.