Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Somerfugl –
Axe the anxiety. The commemorative certificate will do you up just fine. All the awfulthorities want is that date that does not show up on the curious Canadian laminated card. This promulgated in the sauve qui peut tradition of ACCURATE information. But no sugar plums.
heartsick –
A good fireproof safe …
… will humidify and crinkle and maybe mold-infest those precious papers unless you ventilate the sealed box frequently with fresher drier air. Been there done that, and ditched the paper wrecker. Bad advice.
@Blaze
I keep my safety deposit box separate from my usual banking… have a small account there to automatically pay for the box.. but its separate from my *normal* banking needs… its something that was handed down from the elders that survived the war…. never have all your eggs in one place… if something happens… someone can get in & clean it out fast… not that I am rich or anything but u never know
I am not sure where to start , will try to keep this short, my husband and I have lived in Germany for 22.years He has never returned to the states, we have 3 grown children also american, but were raised in Germany. We have little income and very small retirement policies, life insurance policies were used to buy a small house. We however live comfortably with what we have, we earn less then 40,000 euro a year, a small savings with only a few hundred euro. We have never filed taxes to the US in those 22 years, why? We never earned much, and thought we didnt need to, NOw we have been FATCAd, by the very bank where we have the small savings.
MY problem is that my husband wants to renounce citizenship, he has lived here in
most his life, his mother is German, and doesnt want the” HONOR” of being
american. I find the situation unbareble, we have no money to pay the fee for renunciation. And am finding that to renounce we must file 5 years of taxes, which I am sure is 0 but the cost to file would be devistating, everything would have to be translated to English, which is a costly adventure. Plus fees to pay a preparer, with all the forms , we do not understand . We are really between a rock and a hard place. Against the Berlin wall if you will. Cant afford to renounce and cant afford to stay American. Anyway I guess what what I am asking is, for suggestions of what we need to do to get out of this nightmare without losing our livelyhood? Now to make things even more interesting my husband has cancer. Thank heavens for the german social system, but how long before the US government controls that too???
“How nice it is to be American from the land of the Free”
@Lynn
I assume that your husband is US born but he has also been German from birth as he has acquired German citizenship from his Mother? In that case it will be difficult to ‘relinquish’ (as opposed to renounce) to save the $2350 fee. One possibility to claim a relinquishment is if he has performed a relinquishing act, ie held any form of German government job. If this is so , he may be able to claim a backdated relinquishment and depending on when this job happened, he may be exempt from filing back taxes. See the section “important If relinquishing act performed prior to June 4 2004” on side bar. He must also have not acted in any way as an American since then, ie renewed/used his US passport or voted in a US election.
If not, then I am afraid his only choice is to renounce and pay the fee . He will need to file 3 years of back tax returns and 6 yrs of Fbars for the streamlined procedure along with a statement that he was not aware of the filing requirements. Many low income folks here have done these filings themselves and may be able to offer you more advice.
The alternative is to renounce and do nothing. He will then be deemed a ‘covered expatriate’ and all that comes with that. If he has no funds or inheritance in the US and has no intention of travelling there again it may be a consideration. Take time to read all the info here before making a decision.
I wish you both well.
It is almost too painful to read stories like Lyn’s and so many others here at Brock. My own OMG moment in 2011 was terrifying and has left a permanent stain on my health and well being. What right does the U.S. have to do this to ordinary people living lawful lives in other countries but trapped by unwanted U.S. Citizenship.
I am not knowledgable enough to give advice Lyn but if I had to do things over again I think I might have done nothing at all. Despite following the U.S. ‘rules’ I have little peace of mind. The bitterness doesn’t fade. My next contribution to the lawsuit is on its way.
Heide , thankyou he has renued his passport as he does not have duell citizenship, but is in the process of getting the german. He was born in germany, not in the US, but in a US military hospital, such making him US citizen. And was not elgibable for duel citizenship, the year 1957 he went to the states in 1979 at the age of 22. Then we came back 1993. As to the relinguish part, he doesnt want to relinguish because a relinquishment can be denied, as I have read. He has been working since 1993, not in a government job. NOT for a US company. I am also American and plan to renounce but is financially impossible. This is added info only thank you again .
@Lyn, yes a relinquishment could be denied, but if you have a good case (serving in the German military or working for the German government in some capacity) then it’s very unlikely to be refused.
@Lyn, also gaining his German citizenship with the intention of losing his American one can work too. See this blog.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/
This has been done successfully by several people here on the forum. If you can put a letter/document together to take with you to the citizenship ceremony and get it signed by the person taking your oath it’s clear proof of your intentions. There are even some examples here (somewhere) of the ones that people have used for their own relinquishments.
Unfortunately it doesn’t get you out of the tax side of things. But as Heidi says you could relinquish/renounce and then do nothing on the tax side. Providing your German bank is happy with only a CLN as proof of your non-US status and don’t require any proof of US tax filings and you plan never to go back to the States in future this could be an option for you.
@MEDEA thank you he has never served in the German military, and will try maybe to relinquish, to start, then renounce later, or is this not possible.?
Hi, i am lyn’s Husband. I Plan to get a german passport ans then relinquish my citizenship
@Lyn & Walter, yes if for some reason a relinquishment fails, there’s nothing to stop you renouncing later. That is your right under the US Constitution and no one can stop you from doing it. Do research the relinquishment by gaining German citizenship though as that is easily your best option if you go about it in the right way and will save you the $2,350 fee.
@Lyn & Walter
As you probably know, unless a person naturalizes under GG Art. 116, Germany does not normally allow naturalizing citizens to retain their existing citizenship. This should allow you to relinquish your US citizenship, rather than renounce it.
It might be informative to watch a two-part Spiegel TV program called, in particular, the naturalization of the Turkish woman, Fr. Kaya:
Deutsch werden: Der lange Weg zur Einbürgerung (Teil 1)
Endlich Deutsch: Der lange Weg zur Einbürgerung (Teil 2)
@Lyn & Walter
Further to the sound advice from Medea Fleecestealer and Innocente above, I believe applying for German citizenship in and of itself will qualify as an expatriating act, since you are required to pledge loyalty to Germany on the application.
Hello again ! There is something iforgot to mention in my last post, is we have already sign the w 9 form that our bank gave us becuase of threat of freezing the account, will this have any consequences to relinquishing citizenship.? Instead of renouncing.
Hello all, thank you for this very informative website. I am a U.S. Citizen living in Denmark and doing contract work part time in China. I recently found out that I was eligible for an Irish passport due to my birth father being born in Ireland. So I went through the application process and have just received my Irish passport. Until recently I never had any plans to renounce my U.S. Citizenship. I have virtually zero U.S. tax liability and one does not move to Denmark to avoid taxes. Two months ago my wife (A Danish citizen and never resided in the States) and I were trying to buy a house and rather late in the process we were denied due to my U.S. citizenship. This has had me thinking about renouncing almost constantly as my life has been in Denmark for almost five years now and I have no intention of moving back. I have been fully tax compliant for five years and the renounciation fee is no problem other than a nusance. My only concern is that my father, step mother, sister all live in the States and I like to take my kids to visit once per year for two to three weeks. Besides the law that states anyone who relinquishes for tax reasons can be permanently barred, are there any potential traps visiting the States for those who have renounced or relinquished? Have any who have renounced or relinquished had any issues? Thank you all for your time.
@Lynne and Walter,
Yes, you can always renounce if relinquishment is denied.
BUT you should NOT be denied relinquishment if you take German citizenship with the full intention of relinquishing your US one. If the Embassy give you a hard time and try to get you to renounce, just insist they send your relinquishment to Washington for approval. Many embassy staff are not fully cognisant of the rules.
You should know that you should BOTH relinquish as there are tax consequences of one spouse being a US citizen and the other non US, for inheritance etc.
http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2014/11/16/ask-an-expert-tax-tips-for-expats-with-alien-spouses/
You can also relinquish at any embassy or consulate, some are faster than others.
@Andrew
Andrew, after you renounce, you will need to fill in the form 8854 as part of your final tax filing. This will assess your net worth and if you are above 2 million or have had an average tax liability of over $151,000 for the last 5 yrs (you will have to check the recent numbers) you will be deemed to be a ‘covered expatriate’. The Reed amendment has sought to bar persons who have given up citizenship for so called ‘tax purposes’ entry into the US, but this has never been put into practice and would be very difficult to implement. Otherwise, after you have expatriated you will be treated as any other non us citizen and allowed to enter the US for the permitted time, 120 days/year on average, (but there is a complex formula calculated over a 3 yr period.). As an EU citizen, you will have to apply for an ESTA visa waiver, done simply on line. If you have a US birthplace you should always carry a copy of your CLN to show at the border in case you are challenged.
If you have not used your US passport or not voted in a US election since getting your Irish one, then you may be able to claim a relinquishment and save the fee! Good Luck.
@ Lyn –
I have no answers for you but
(1) I wanted to welcome you to Isaacbrocksociety (where, I anticipate, someone will have some suggestions) and
(2) I wanted to let you know that my heart truly goes out to you and your family at this time of decision-making crisis.
With this being 2015, when FATCA kicks in all over the world, you may be feeling even more pressure to resolve this situation one way or the other. But you are strongly encouraged to take time to learn and consider carefully all your options and not rush into anything immediately. Did you husband become a German citizen during his time there? How long ago? Did he work in a German government or military job? Has your husband continued to vote in the US or hold a US passport? Your children will also have to independently consider whether or not to keep or renounce their citizenship…
Does your US passport have to be valid or can it be expired when you renounce?
I don’t want to get a new just so that I can renouce!
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@Lynne,
No it should make no difference signing the W9, as I understand it, you have not YET taken up German citizenship(with the intent to lose your US one). When you at last get your CLN, (certificate of loss of nationality) you must take it to the bank and sign a W8BEN to attest that you are no longer US citizens.
@Uncle Tell,
I can’t think why it would need to be valid. The US claim people to be Americans who have never even held a US passport!
@Heidi
“…. The US claim people to be Americans who have never even held a US passport!”
How right you are!