Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Chrispy,
You haven’t said when your employment was or if you have some record of it. Here is what I know in case it’s useful to you and others. I’ve posted this before but I couldn’t find it just now.
My employment was in the mid-70’s but records that far back are hard to come by. Nearly impossible, actually. My box of tax forms with copies of T4s goes back to 1978: 1 year short.
Here is where I looked and how far back some records go:
I called the CRA for T4s (1980), Service Canada (ROE, EI – 10 years), CPP (1966), CUPE, 8 different departments at The City (7 years after termination of employment), the City’s pension plan holder, the Royal Bank (pay deposit records), and 2 different old girlfriends (WhoAreYou?). The City wouldn’t give me a letter without having their own records, which they don’t, so they didn’t. I’m sure they would not have written a letter for me even if I had T4s and pay stubs.
It took me 4 months to get a letter from the CPP people. They have no email or phone; you have to make a request in writing. Be sure to ask for full records including employers names (not just dollar contributions). After 90 business days you can then phone the regular CPP line and ask them to raise the priority. I had to do that twice. 1-800-277-9914
A year ago, in Calgary, when you booked an appointment they sent forms and gave you a date and asked that you send them the completed forms “before your appointment”. Now they ask for the completed forms _before_ they give you an appointment date.
@Schubert1975
I think things may have changed since your appointment. Each time I requested an appointment I was required to send the forms already filled in before they would book an appointment. Now, that may just be the Toronto consulate.
Can others who have requested an appointment in 2014 at other consulates verify this?
@Kathy. I had to send in filled out forms to the Vancouver Consulate before I could schedule an appointment. I sent the forms in at the end of August and was given a December appointment, since I would be in Vancouver at that time.
My appointment is this afternoon, December 19. I am just now going over all the documents, paperwork etc. to make sure I haven’t missed anything. I was warned if anything is missing I would have to schedule another appointment which would not be possible since I live in Ontario and am just visiting Vancouver for Christmas. I am rather nervous about the appointment and hope I don’t mess something up. I am going for a
CLN to document my relinquishment in 2002. If they won’t let me relinquish then I am not going to renounce because I cannot pay the exorbitant fee.
@Kathy,
I have a comment at the end of my previous message about appointments and forms:
A year ago, in Calgary, when you booked an appointment they sent forms and gave you a date and asked that you send them the completed forms “before your appointment”. Now they ask for the completed forms _before_ they give you an appointment date.
The Calgary office has been good about postponing appointments. So far they squeeze you in a few weeks later and do not put you at the end of the line. That may or may not apply to showing up with incomplete or incorrect documentation.
@Schubert1975,
Bookmark the following and it will always take you to the end of the comments. It’s from the sidebar “Ask Your Questions About” … “Relinquishment and Renunciation of US citizenship”:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/
You can also erase the trailing “comment-page-161/#comments” in the browser’s URL field leaving just http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation .
@Kathy In Ottawa in April 2014 the forms had to be filled out first, then an appointment was given, although only a few weeks later at the time.
@Somerfugi Key word to keep in mind is “Intent”. Answer any questions as asked – short and sweet. Don’t volunteer additional thoughts or information. Relax and don’t stress yourself out so that you look like you are trying to get away with something you are not entitled to. You are simply informing them of what you did intentionally in 2002 and showing that you haven’t done anything since then to make it look like you wanted to keep American citizenship. If you have done something inadvertently (such as recently starting to fill our income tax forms or gotten an American passport) be ready to explain how it was result of panic or pressure from agents or whatever the reason and not intent to remain an American.
@ Somerfugl
Deep breaths, put your all-Canadian chin up, walk in there tall and with true intent. GOOD LUCK!
@WhatAmI Thanks for the tip and the link.
@Others I stand corrected on not having to complete the forms before making the appointment. Boy has that tightened up, they never used to do that as far as I’ve heard. But I stopped tracking these things regularly, after my wife got her relinquishment CLN in 2012.
FWIW in 1976 you could get a relinquishment CLN (not renunciation though, I suspect) by mail. Which is how I got mine back then. So they definitely are making things harder (not to mention the renunciation fee). Possibly because the numbers of people wanting to check out of Hotel America have skyrocketed since then; anything they can do to make the process more discouraging for applicants and easier on them, is probably A Good Thing (for them) in their eyes.
@EmBee, @Voyons
Thanks for the advice. My relinquishing appointment went well at the Vancouver Consulate this afternoon, except for one document. For proof of Canadian citizenship (in addition to my passport) , I brought the wallet size card issued in 2002 which has my photo etc., plus on the back it states “Certificate of Canadian Citizenship”. Unfortunately this is not what they wanted. Rather they wanted the large paper document that to me looks generic, which I did not think I needed and thus did not bring it to Vancouver. Fortunately, they said I can just mail it to them as soon as I get back to Ontario, so I won’t need a second appointment. As soon as they get this document my CLN will be processed and they told me it would take 6 months. The relinquishment will be dated from when I took the Canadian oath.
I was pleasantly surprised at how friendly everyone was, including all the security people. They accepted that I could relinquish since I had done nothing to claim US citizenship since 2002.
I did not bring my cell phone but I was told that they have lockers where you can keep them.
Now to get that certificate sent as soon as we get back to Ontario. I am so annoyed that I did not think to bring it with me, especially since my husband and I checked many times to make sure we had all the required documents.
@ Somerfugl
Glad it went well. Remember Tiger? She could tell you how Vancouver likes documentation (took her several tries to get the precise version of her U.S. birth certificate they wanted). It’s over and now you can relax and really enjoy the holiday season. Merry Christmas and a Happy CLN New Year! 🙂
@ Somefugl
Were there any others there who looked like renouncers or relinquishers? When my husband went for his appointment (Calgary, Feb. 2014) there were 9 others (one was a renouncer who went off to think a bit more about it).
@Somerfugl: Glad to hear it went well. Let’s get together for a New Year’s toast to this step to freedom when you return home. In the meantime, enjoy your time with your family on the west coast.
@Embee: Somefugl, Tiger and I together first consulted Joe Arvay in March of 2012.
I don’t think any of us envisioned then that this nightmare would still be dragging on, that the Canadian government would betray us they way they have or that we would be in the midst of such a massive fundraising initiative almost three years later to preserve our fundamental rights as Canadians.
Another congratulations for you, Somerfugl. Glad you’ve almost reached the end — six more months, give or take, for your CLN. So glad it worked for you today!!!!
That is great. And you made it before the New Year’s so you’re not required to file anything else for 2016 congratulations.
Cheers,
Rocky
It gets better. Somerfugi has no need to file anything.
Really, they are mean spirited and then we are so grateful when they stop the abuse.
According to citizenship Canada, the citizenship CARD was the official proof and the certificate was ‘ ‘commemorative’
Naturally the consulate saw it the other way round.
Blaze –
I don’t think any of us envisioned then that this nightmare would still be dragging on
A prime example of how deluded statist individuals presume to speak for “us” …
USXCanada re: “Blaze –
I don’t think any of us envisioned then that this nightmare would still be dragging on.
A prime example of how deluded statist individuals presume to speak for “us” …”
HUH? Blaze, Tiger, and Somerfugl are deluded statists? Who is “us”?
@usxcanada,
Hey, welcome back! I haven’t seen any posts from you for some time now. I saved my favorite, from June 16 2014. It’s worth repeating in case some of us missed it:
I also enjoy usxcanada’s crypticisms, however critical they might be. They tickle the thought processes and help reduce the destructive echo chamber effect.
@Chrispy and others
If your local consulate is requiring completed forms in order to obtain an appointment, I would simply complete the forms based on your relinquishment due to gov employment as soon as you have enough info to complete the forms, even if you have not yet obtained all your documentation yet. There should be absolutely no problem switching from a relinquishment to a renouncement if that becomes necessary.
Others will comment on recent waiting times for appointments in Canada, but I seem to recall some posts saying as long as 9 months at some consulates, so I would not put it off too long.
As other shave said (and it always bears repeating), if you go for relinquishment, it is absolutely essential that you state clearly that you knew you would be losing your US citizenship at the time and you fully intended to do so.
@Somefugl, congratulations! Glad to hear it all went smoothly despite the little hiccup. Sort that out quickly and you’re on the home stretch to freedom.
@duke of Devon, thanks for your info: “According to citizenship Canada, the citizenship CARD was the official proof and the certificate was ‘ ‘commemorative’
Naturally the consulate saw it the other way round.”
This is what my husband and I thought, too, which is why I did not bring the certificate to Vancouver.
@EmBee: There was only one other person in the waiting room with me, a young guy who looked to be about 30. He told me that he was here “to prove that I am a U.S. citizen, but I’m not sure why I’m doing this”. He is Canadian. I almost said why on earth do you want to be American, I,m here to get rid of my citizenship? But I chickened out because I didn,t want to to get into a discussion and have anyone overhear me. I was a bit worried maybe the room was bugged! ( unlikely, I know, but the consulate is like a fortress.)
@Blaze: I would love to get together with you when I get back in January.
@ Somerfugl
Actually I think your fears of the room being bugged are quite realistic. The USA (United Snoops of All) won’t be satisfied until we are left with only our thoughts which they will eventually become proficient at reading. Nobody is so enslaved as those who cannot communicate freely. Nobody does slavery better than the USA. You were wise to not engage with that poor misguided young man. Your mission was to obtain a CLN and you are well on your way towards that. I went with my husband the day of his appointment and of course I had to wait in the hallway outside the ground floor security clearance room. I couldn’t help but pace a bit (well actually quite a bit) and I could feel the creepiness of the surveillance cameras as I did so. What an Orwellian world (actually Orwellian on surveillance steroids).
In preparation to relinquish, I requested from Library and Archives Canada a copy of the citizenship oath I swore in 1974 and the oath I swore when I joined the federal government in 1978. Here is the information I received: (and if any Brockers feel this should be posted elsewhere on the blog, please feel free to link this info).
Citizenship Oath (1946 Canadian Citizenship Act, came into effect January 1, 1947, amended 1977, Revised Statues of Canada, 1970, Volume 1, Chapter C-19, Schedule II.
“I, A.B. swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors, according to law, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. So help me God.” R.S., c.33, Second Sch.
Public Service Employment Oath (1967 Public Service Employment Act, amended 1992, Revised Statutes of Canada, 1970, Volume VI, Chapter P-32, Schedule III.
“I, A.B., solemnly and sincerely swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully and honestly fufil the duties that devolve upon me by reason of my employment in the public service and that I will not, without due authority in that behalf, disclose or make known any matter that comes to my knowledge by reason of such employment. (In the case where an oath is taken add, “So help me GOd.”) 1966-67, c. 71, Sch. C.
P.S. I don’t know what A.B. stands for, but it’s in all the oaths. If anyone knows, could you please let me know? Thanks.
Without getting usxcanada all riled up, A.B. Is shorthand for a name such as John Doe or Jane Smith.