More #CookvTait: Why do some Homelanders believe that US taxation of non-US residents is okay? https://t.co/a8OOKaUYx1 – Why??
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) November 11, 2015
On November 15, 2015 I wrote a post asking for your assistance with the following question:
How should Americans abroad address the Homelander attitude (and argument?) which I expressed as:
Assistance required. Many people defend (not justify) citizenship taxation on the basis that:
- All U.S. citizens are subject to the same provisions of the Internal Revenue Code
- Americans abroad are U.S. citizens
Therefore, Americans abroad should be subject to the same provisions of the Internal Revenue Code as Homelanders.
Or in Homelanderspeak:
All U.S. citizens are subject to exactly the same set of tax laws. What could be unjust about that? We are ALL citizens. Therefore, we should ALL be subject to the same set of laws.
Could you please address your mind to the following question:
What is the best response to this argument? How can one best explain that it is wrong to justify citizenship taxation on the basis that ALL citizens are subject to it in the same ways?
Thank you very much for the responses. Please keep this coming. I would now like to use the following comment by Barbara as the basis for this post:
Me again. I’m really interested in this topic, and trying to find answers, so let me put out this question:
What arguments, points or questions have you used that Homelanders actually responded to?
Just like most of us here, I have tried all the arguments. I get their attention by naming the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. But the one point that almost always makes them stop and think, is the $10,000 non-willful FBAR penalty.
On just about every other point–Eritrea, double taxation, excessive fines, bank account closures, etc.–my Homelander buddies always have a retort, such as “Well, if you have nothing to hide…” or “Just use a US bank account…” But all take serious issue with the FBAR penalty. Sadly, that is not our core problem.
But maybe I’m just not wording my points right to them. If anyone has any debate “successes” to share, I’d like to hear them. Maybe then we can try to distill those arguments that do work into a workable short-n-simple platform.
Barbara raises an important question. How do we know what arguments Homelanders might respond to? We need (I think) to understand what is going inside the head of a Homelander. Why would a Homelander believe that those who live outside the United States should be subjected to U.S. taxation as though they live in the United States?
Therefore, the purpose of this post is to solicit your comments on the question of:
Why exactly do many (but NOT all) Homelanders believe that the U.S. should impose taxes on those who don’t live in the United States? What is their world view? What are the assumptions they are working with? Why do they believe that equality means that everybody should be subjected to the same rules?
There is often a difference between what people way and what their real motivation is
The question is NOT what they say. The question is why do they say what they say! In other words, what is their motivation? What is the “hidden issue” that they are not articulating?
Some possible suggestions …
– as citizens we all have an equal responsibility to support the U.S. government no matter where we live
– taxation is a punishment. Why should someone be able to escape punishment by leaving the country?
– what the f…? You think you are going to leave the USA and NOT pay any taxes? (In other words, I have the distinct impression that many Homelenaders don’t realize that Americans abroad pay higher taxes than they do, which is why you are generally better off with tax preparers in your country of residence)
My point is that:
In order to educate Homelanders and to address their arguments/responses we need to understand why they think/feel the way they do.
So, could you please comment on what is the motivation for Homelanders (those that do) to support the imposition of taxation on people who don’t live in the United States. Although, I am primarily interested in the thinking of “Everyday Homelanders”, you might find the following CBC Interview of Michael Kirsch interesting:
@CBCAllInADay interviews law Professor Michael Kirsch about his reasons for supporting taxation of #Americansabroad http://t.co/FcVL4QJIXa
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) August 16, 2014
The interview referenced in the above tweet was the subject of a separate post on the Isaac Brock Society. See the comments as well.
Thanks very much.
@PierreD, ” I’m never averse to trying to knock them off their “exceptionalism” horses by insisting that they’re blindly delusional as to the desirability of living in the USA (been there, done that, left). They seem to believe lineups of uneducated economic refugees from third world countries trying to get into the USA also applies to people from modern comfortable democracies. It ain’t so!!!”
Yep, been there done that……………….
Every so often I get the following from a homelander acquaintance, “When are you coming home?”
Always at first, I want to break out laughing but then they will think I am really nuts…
So I say I am already home.
They figure out what I meant and then have the gaul to say “When are you really coming home?”
Dependent on mood….an expletive…..then………..NEVER.
Interesting comments @Jan, and @J.
@USCitizenAbroad, I think it is a combination of a context of national indoctrination and unquestioning belief that the US and its residents are the center of the universe, and narcissism, coupled with a sorry lack of insight and lack of altruism – plus the power to advance its agenda at all costs.
It is crucial to recognize and be on guard against thinking that type of worldview and ambition is limited only to the US. We mislead ourselves if we think that the US and its inhabitants are the only ones in the world who exhibit this pathology. But in the case of the US, the navel gazing coupled with lack of scruples when it comes to the rest of the world, coupled with extraterritorial ambitions and rampant narcissim fed and maintained by the power and position the US occupies in the world, and its history – enables it to keep generating its alternate reality smokescreen larger and more densely than smaller countries can.
“I’m sorry, folks, but the Eritrea argument is a waste of breath, even though we latch onto it because it’s one of the few points that can be described in a single sentence.”
Let me try.
Why do you suppose the US sponsored a UN resolution against Eritrea calling Eritrea’s copy of US policy a human rights violation?
I very much like J’s analogies to religion, excellent food for thought. That really does explain the resistance to logic. Because we’re fighting religious zealotry with logic, and that’s why it isn’t working.
I was recently involved in a lengthy Facebook argument on a Bernie Sanders rah-rah post, in which I listed every logical argument against FATCA, and actually succeeded in convincing several people that the law had massively destructive effects. Yet not one single person suggested the law be repealed or even amended. Unanimously, their “solution” was that I should “come home” and hence put the problem behind me. Cuz we still gotta nail them tax cheats. Don’t like the big, bad world out there? Come back to the congregation, baby, let the church wrap its arms around you and shield you from the devil.
Time to study the speeches of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He preached using religious references, cadence, and context, in order to change politics. We need to learn from him.
@Norman,
Every time–every time–I’ve raised the Eritrea argument–yes, including the UN Human Rights Resolution–and pointed out that French citizens working in America don’t pay taxes to France, the response is always, always, always: “Well, maybe they should.”
They don’t see America as an outlier, they see America as a groundbreaker in taxing citizens wherever they live.
“If countries all over the world were to impose CBT on their citizens residing in the US, there will surely be a howl of protests.”
Homelanders still wouldn’t notice. The howls would only come from damn dirty immigrants who don’t belong there anyway.
If Canada would impose CBT and US style exit proceedings then Ted Cruz might howl, but it wouldn’t be fair to anyone else. Besides, it’s too late to do it to Ted Cruz.
“and pointed out that French citizens working in America don’t pay taxes to France”
Maybe leave out that part. Maybe just emphasize that Eritrea is America’s ONLY friend and that America sponsored a UN resolution against its ONLY friend because America considers its friend’s agreement with American policy to be a human rights violation.
“My Canadian-born US-deemed US citizen son has never recited, like I did every day of my US education, the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America.”
US non-citizen nationals born in US territory DID put their hands over their hearts and recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation[*], with liberty and justice for all … until the US stripped them of their US non-citizen nationality.
[* I’m not sure if it was under God in those days. Though why should it matter when God is subordinate to the US, right?]
What about the absurdity that we are considered to be resident in the US for tax purposes only?
@Barbara, I agree re;
“I very much like J’s analogies to religion, excellent food for thought. That really does explain the resistance to logic. Because we’re fighting religious zealotry with logic, and that’s why it isn’t working.”….
Re: Religion. Thou shalt not attack “Citizenship Based Taxation” as no doubt the sentence will include both “US” and “Citizenship; and such attach may evoke a defensive reaction, that is best avoided to make any headway.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/07/17/the-term-citizenship-based-taxation-seems-wrapped-in-the-u-s-flag-perhaps-the-term-needs-redefinition-for-better-discussion-with-u-s-homelanders/
Best to declare the laws unAmerican right off to make sure you have the flag, not them.
Only When US Citizens live in the US are they subject to the compliance and taxation laws of one nation. If they live overseas they face double taxation without US representation or US services.
@ JC
US person living inside the US has ONE tax master.
US person living outside the US has TWO tax masters.
FAIR? I think NOT!
Would that fit a tweet?
If it is righteous that taxation be based on citizenship, then every homelander has to agree that every nation to which a person holds citizenship has the right to tax its citizens, including Americans who live in the US.
Rather than fighting CBT, we should be lobbying the Canadian government to adopt it. Then we’d really hear the homelander’s change their tune. Unfortunately homelanders don’t care about how stupid or smart they are, just as long as they’re exceptional at being one of them.
“Rather than fighting CBT, we should be lobbying the Canadian government to adopt it. Then we’d really hear the homelander’s change their tune.”
No, real homelanders would say that those damn dirty immigrants who don’t even belong in the US are just getting what they deserve.
You’d hear howls from me though. If I had to pay Canada the difference between Canada’s tax rate and Japan’s tax rate, along with paying Japan’s living expenses, my net would be negative.
@EmBee How about this:
https://twitter.com/JCDoubleTaxed/status/664764089558654976
@Norman Diamond
You’re assuming that all homelanders are old stock and would not have another citizenship imposed upon them.
Of course I wasn’t serious about Canada adopting CBT. Two wrongs never make a right.
@Bubbles…morning…..”Of course I wasn’t serious about Canada adopting CBT. Two wrongs never make a right.”
Unless it was reciprocity CBT which would be a tool to kill the whole beast.
Chemotherapy is poison put in the body to kill cancer, reciprocity CBT is the same.
Also think how Canada could use it. The USA would lose more under Canadian CBT than the USA gains so its a tool like MAD (mutual assured destruction).
@Bubbles, “What about the absurdity that we are considered to be resident in the US for tax purposes only?”
But not resident for US tax purposes for any benefits!!! Like medicare or what about education tax credits/
@George Yes, but poison is poison and sometimes people die from the side effects of chemo.
Yes, there is a religious element to it, definitely.
Also because Americans don’t get out abroad much, they don’t have much sense of who U.S. persons abroad are. Basically, US citizens abroad only make the news when they are in trouble abroad (like being taken hostage), when they are causing problems (most recently the case of U.S. citizen and alleged major cybercriminal Joshua Samuel Aaron), when they are refusing to pay U.S. tax or maybe when they are retiring abroad on their U.S. earnings. Working Americans who have settled abroad have no profile at all.
I think that the actual reason that no form of logic gets through to them is the single fact that they have the absolute power. America has absolute power over the rest of the world. And only when they were somehow taken into account for all the double binds, hypocrisy and contradictions would they even beging to think about it. But give anybody absolute power and they don`t need to. Morality? Bah humbug. Morals are lost in the face of absolute power.
@ JC
Sweet tweet! You sure know how to make good use of those limited number of characters.
Bubblebustin said to me: “You’re assuming that all homelanders are old stock and would not have another citizenship imposed upon them.”
No, I’m just pointing out that the only ones doing the howling would be new stock. Old stock homelanders already believe the new stock don’t belong there, and would just say the new stock are getting what they deserve.
First nations would say that old stock other than first nations also don’t belong there, but other old stock homelanders would close their ears.
Well, this isn’t a sound bite, but maybe start by reading these words:
“Globalization has driven millions of individual taxpayers and hundreds of thousands of small and medium-sized businesses to seek economic opportunities abroad. It also has increased competition among tax administration agencies for tax bases and sources of revenue. For this reason, 40 economies made it easier to pay taxes last year. However, a recent World Bank report ranks the United States 66th in the areas of time spent to comply with tax obligations and 62nd in the ease of paying taxes among 183 countries surveyed. the complexity of international tax law, combined with the procedural burden on international taxpayers, creates an environment where honest taxpayers who are trying their best to comply simply cannot. For some, this means paying more U.S. tax than is legally required, while others may be subject to steep civil and criminal penalties. Some U.S taxpayers abroad find the tax requirements so confusing and the burden of complying with them so great that they give up their U.S. citizenship. a recent IRS study of taxpayer needs and preferences showed that international taxpayers may have a greater current need for IRS services than the general taxpayer population. Yet while the IRS has invested hundreds of millions of dollars in international enforcement programs, it has not adequately improved taxpayer services that would foster compliance.”
“Many U.S. taxpayers abroad are confused by the complex legal and reporting requirements they face and are overwhelmed by the prospect of having to comply with them. Some are even renouncing their U.S. citizenship for that reason; about 4,000 people did so in fiscal years (Fys) 2005 to 2010. renunciations increased more than tenfold from 146 in Fy 2008 to 1,534 in Fy 2010, with 1,024 renunciations in the first two quarters of Fy 2011 alone. IRS publication 4732, Federal Tax Information for U.S. Taxpayers Living Abroad, illustrates the complexity of the filing requirements. It refers to at least eight other relevant IRS publications, totaling 563 pages, and the additional documents referred to by these other publications include 4,727 pages of instructions, 667 pages of forms, and another 1,928 pages of form instructions, or 7,322 total pages.”
Wait for homelanders to call it garbage.
THEN tell them who wrote those words, and where to see the IRS wrote them to Congress in 2011:
http://www.taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov//userfiles/file/TAS_arc2011_execsummary.pdf
Unfortunately the NTA will never call for a repeal of CBT, as its her job to make it work, but what she can do is insist that it’s properly funded and enforced, something congress and the IRS will never do.
Maybe then US lawmakers will look at alternatives.
@Bubblebustin The tax payer advocate has highlighted injustices in the past. If the NTA wants the system to work then best that it is viewed as fair and just to help with compliance.