Posted on May 3, 2012 by recalcitrantexpat Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 50 Comments Well today one of my children was able to renounce U.S. citizenship. The monkey of U.S. citizenship is now off the back of one more Canadian citizen. Share this:TwitterFacebookEmailLike this:Like Loading...
Saddened 123. I can’t imagine why your son is bothering. In my case, I came within hours of entering the OVDI. Would have caused no end of aggro. and a small fortune. Fortunately, accountant said ‘I can’t advise you to break the law but do you really think this is what you want to do. After all you would be sending a carload of info to the CRIMINAL branch in Texas”
“I have no idea what it will end up costing”
Reading these boards has liberated me. Now if anybody asks, I am Canadian.
@chester12, He will not be going in the OVDI program, I would not allow that.. I think he is just going to file back 5 or 6 years back. (Now) the way he is talking he wants to see what happens down the road,( he was talking about renouncing) He said he may want to live there someday, his boss told him there could be good opportunities to work there. When he came home and told me this, I thought why in the hell, damnit why did she have to say that. I want him to get away for US.(Renounce and be Free)
Chester, I know what you are saying, but it is damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I have been so sick over this, one minute I want him to just forget about it and the next just do it and get it over with..
I wish I knew what to tell him.. he said the other nite that if he did nothing he didn’t think it would matter.. I know it is his choice but I just want him to comply and get it over with.. I would hate that he got caught up with this later after he had a family and money in the bank..
Chester, it is damned if you do and damned if you don’t .. It could be the wrong thing to do, but also doing nothing could be wrong as well..
I feel your pain. Good luck
@Chester12, Thank you for wishing us good luck, we will probably need it. I wish I knew the best thing for my son to do..
It is of course absurd that the US makes you travel back there to get an SSN in order to file in order to be able to renounce. I assume that this also applies that you need to get a US passport as proof of citizenship as well in order to prove that you are a citizen in order to get the SSN. What a huge waste of time and money! I once had to get the Italian equivalent issued to me (codice fiscale) and the Consulate issued it to me on the spot for free. What a difference…
By the way, I think that the day that the IRS starts going after people like Diane Ablonczy is the day that the tide will finally turn against them. So far they seem smart enough to avoid hassling people like her, Boris Johnson, Prince Albert of Monaco and so on, because I imagine that they understand the huge backlash that that would cause.
@saddened123- the Consular official tried that line, you may want to go there and work or what if your brothers move to the States, but thankfully this time he didn’t cave.
Your son needs to take a long serious look at the tax reporting and investment constraints that he will have as long as he continues to live in Canada. It is where you are and what you can do in the here and now that deserves to have greater weight in his decision as opposed to the “what if”. Maybe now would be the right time for him to consult a good cross border tax attorney or accountant. In other words, before, he actually has work that needs to be done. Maybe they can give him a wake up call.
They can tell him about the filing costs, the investment limitations and the fact that he is taking an undue risek by exposing himself to unquatifiable U.S. legislative risks.
If they lay out their case well they can show him that he will remain poor if he lives in Canada while having to observe pointless U.S. tax rules. He should also be informed that he has to observe all U.S. travel restrictions, such as not being t legally allowed to travel to Cuba.
He needs to understand that all of these rules will affect his family, should he have one later, and not return a single dime to his pocket.
I think saddened is referring to getting the SSN process rather than the renunciation process for her son.
If your son wants to sometime in the future be able to live and work in the States, his decision should be based on that and what would be best for him. (He should know there is a whole big world out there besides the US.) Then, his decision might be much different than if he was OK with never again crossing the US/Canada border.
And, if he decides to renounce his supposed US citizenship, this is in the oath he will take; i.e. it has to be his own decision, not influenced by anyone, even his mom. Advice, yes; support of his decision, yes; telling him what he should do, no.
@Don, actually a birth certificate was sufficient to get a SSN. I applied for SSN so I could file taxes and to renew my passport. I wrongly thought that it was required for passport, but apparently you can put a series of “000’s” in its place and that’s what I ended up doing because my SSN wasn’t issued before my passport appointment. However, if you have a SSN and you don’t put it on your passport application, you can be fined $500.
Ha, one of my son’s loves his US citizenship and the other doesn’t want any part of it. Go figure.
@saddened123- one area of our lives where many of us fail to plan at all is with regards to “taxes”. Tax liability planning can make the difference between having wealth in your old age or living in penury. When it comes to the compatability between Canadian tax law and U.S. tax law there is virtually none.
Such things as TFSA, income splitting, PFIC’s are either not allowed or have their tax benefit eliminated by U.S. taxation.
The best tax planning act that a dual citizen can perform is to eliminate U.S. citizenship.
Don’t be afraid to tell this to your son. The wording about “undue” influence is put there not for the sake of protecting your son but to keep you from telling him the truth. The U.S. will not tell your son the truth nor will they ever love him like you do. They can care less about him. All that they want is his money.
@saddened123- parental advice does not constitute undue influence.
@all, I appreciate all the comments.. It will be a hard decision for him. I think he will renounce, he has said in the past that he did not want to keep US citizenship because he did not want to file every year. I think he just got caught up in the moment at work because they are always telling him how lucky he is to have US Citizenship, they make it sound like it is the land of Milk and Honey.. they think there is nothing like it. They also told him how they would give anything to have US Citizenship. They just have no idea!
One of his co-worker had lived in LA and moved back to Toronto, he just got his US Citizenship and was so happy. My son told him he has to file US income tax every year and he said no way are you crazy.I laughed I told my son OH BOY is he ever in for a shock..
My bill with the tax lawyer was $26,000 and they made the 2011 OVDI look like it was my only option. “Join now or the IRS will be after you”. I paid no taxes but I did get hit with an $1889 FBAR penalty. I did some good service and all my tax docs were filed on time. So now I wait to see what happens. My biggest concern is that I now know my 2011 filing has hit the IRS first, at least I have had correspondence relating to that not the OVDI. That will probably create issues. I renounced Wednesday March 7/12 and I’m now drafting a letter requesting the CLN as soon as possible. I see no reason why Canadians wait nearly a year and others around the world get there CLN in a few weeks.
Sorry folks, I should have spell checked that last post.
Can we include your information on the Relinquishment & Renunciation database http://isaacbrocksociety.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/us-relinquishment-renunciation-m28.pdf? Request Date / First Appt / Second Appt (if req’d) / Renounce? / Relinquish? / CLN Date. Did you renounce in Calgary with one appointment required only?
… and Congratulations on your progress!! Keep us informed about how long it takes to receive your CLN in Canada.
Sure, my story is actually under the name Late Loyalist listed below. Petros posted it for me some time ago. Oh, I just sent request to the Calgary consulate to expedite my CLN. I paid the fee now I want the service that’s supposed to follow. The responce should be interesting.
@itacaf — Thanks for the clarification. Late Loyalist is there! Good idea and good luck to you in getting expedition of your CLN. We Canadians should all take heed.
Look at the way Columbia treats its expats. It does many things to support them abroad because it values the money they send home to family members and the influence they have as informal ambassadors.
Compare this with the US which punishes expats with citizenship-based taxation and treats them like pariahs.
An article from Market Watch bashing expats who renounce their citizenship. It says we are un-American.
The guy who wrote it, Al Lewis, represents the typical closed-minded Homelander who lacks the capacity to understand that American expats who renounce/relinquish US citizenship are merely following in the footsteps of America’s founders.
@Ben, you should have started an new thread on that one! There goes my blood pressure! Al Lewis is sadly ill-informed, actually an ignoramus.
Just me posted a great comment on Lewis the bonehead’s hit piece on expats:
From Just me aka FBAR_compliant
“Sorry, but I have to disagree with Al. If you think people are giving up their citizenship to evade taxes you are sadly misinformed. Americans abroad have many reasons unrelated to the amount of tax they pay, which is often higher in the country they are living then what you all pay as an “effective rate” back in the homeland. But sadly you don’t seem to understand that!
It is easy to demagog this issue, and just think this is some unpatriotic act, but that is too simple of a characterization .
It is the TAX COMPLEXITY, STUPID, to paraphrase an old expression. The US is unique with its Citizenship taxation. There are multitudes of forms that you must fill out, with draconian penalties for failure. There FATCA legislation that is making Americans pariahs and locking them out of banking services. There is double taxation. If you are living and paying tax overseas, there is less value now in having a US passport. Move abroad for a year or two and you will get it!”
@ben, happy to learn that comment was from Just me.
I got a response from the Calgary Consulate about my CLN request.
“Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, as we discussed at your interview, we remain unable to give you a precise timeline for completion of your loss of nationality case. As also discussed, recent experience shows that it is taking between six months and a year to complete the process. I do hope that it is completed more quickly than that, but it would be imprudent to make any guarantees that this will be the case. Your documentation is currently being considered by the Department of State in Washington. As soon as we become aware of their decision on your file we will contact you. After completion of the process, your date of loss of nationality should be retroactive to the date that you took your oath of renunciation.
U.S. Consulate General Calgary”
Basically all I was looking for was that some action had already been taken. I specifically like this, “your date of loss of nationality should be retroactive to the date that you took your oath of renunciation”. That’s whats important to me.
Thanks for sharing the feedback you received from the US Consulate in Calgary. There certainly appears to be no standard of procedure from one Consulate to another; one Country to another; one Relinquishment vs Renunciation in timing for appointments, number of appointments or the time it takes to get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality.
(I’m going to put your comment in the Relinquish and Renounce thread as well so it isn’t lost.)
Well I won’t forget my SSN number
Do they have a special tattoo removal studio anywhere for renouncers? Maybe we should open one and call it Real-INK-Washers Parlor