The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
In other words, we’re on the FBI terrorist list!??!
Hi again Em. Why bother revisiting this. We have established that you are a resident of canada. CRA can do little except confirm this. We also know you are a non resident alien sa far as the US is concerned. Ask yourself, what can they do about it? Bugger all.
@calgary411
And most likely CIA, and NSA, and Homeland Security and RCMP and CSIS and CSE and on and on… Post-9/11 paranoia remains big business, even after a decade.
@Deckard1138
‘Post-9/11 paranoia remains big business, even after a decade’. I have said it to my sons and many others – they won. Constantly ‘looking over their shoulders’ to check if there is a terroist behind them, in my humble opinion, has caused the loss of freedom and irrevocably changed the US for the worse. Tis a pity, really!
@ Chester12
I guess I just didn’t want to be viewed as a criminal in the USA but since I will never go there and at this point Canada will not collect US taxes owing or FBAR/8938 penalties from Canadian citizens living in Canada (that’s me) I think I’ll just have to hang pat and hope there aren’t any more surprises in the future. I personally have nothing for them to confiscate in the US except my standing with friends and relatives down there. I don’t think I will be participating in a 1040 shakedown starting with the 2011 filing. My American husband is switching to Married Filing Separate and I suppose they would want a 1040NR from me but I’ve had enough … I’ve just had enough. The irony is that if they hadn’t made the FBAR so intrusive my husband and I would still be filing jointly. No, I didn’t like doing 1040s every year but it was the FBAR where I drew the line. Canada does not ask that information of me and I am determined I won’t give it up to the USA. My husband has no choice for now but he will renounce his US citizenship after his mother passes away.
There always seem to be surprises like the one in the link below which relates how Sen. Barbara Boxer is cooking up a bill to suspend passports when taxes are owed ($50,000 and up).
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/04/04/owe-the-irs-bill-would-suspend-passport-travel-rights-for-delinquent-taxpayers/#comments
@Em, the surprises continue to appear – and every single one is designed only to be punitive in nature and intent. What about the carrot people! Won’t they learn that the stick only goes so far…. All the carrots seem to be outside the US permanently.
I agree @Deckard1138 re;
‘Post-9/11 paranoia remains big business, even after a decade’. And I believe that agencies jumped at the chance to bend it to their own devices.
and, I won’t miss “doing the Mambo while eating a Big Mac”… They had to make a specific prescription against it – just in case?
: )
about “The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Brady Act) of 1993, Public Law 103-159 — Persons Who Renounce U.S. Citizenship Ineligible to Purchase Firearms, provides that it is unlawful to sell firearms to persons for whom a finding of loss of nationality due to renunciation has been made.”
From the news in the US, (like the latest tragedy in Florida) – who needs to worry about renunciants, it appears to be the citizens on the inside that are running around armed and dangerous http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17648620
This may not be the right place to post this but I just want to say that I sent an e-mail to The Corbett Report. I’ll let you know if anything comes of it. Here’s what I sent …
SUBJECT: Tax Tyranny
As you may know the USA is the only country in the world (other than Eritrea) which uses a country of origin based tax system. That means that US citizens or simply the IRS definition of “US persons” are required to file US tax returns forever, no matter where they may live in the world, no matter for how long. They must also reveal all their banking information to the Treasury Dept. (FBAR form) and now the IRS itself (form 8938). There are 72,000 pages in the US tax code and “overseas filers” face even more complex rules than US residents so most end up paying specialists to do their taxes. Then there are the penalties for simply failing to file a FBAR form. Those penalties can bankrupt a person who most likely would not even have owed any tax to the IRS at all. It’s a horrible mess and if you would like to investigate it then http://isaacbrocksociety.com/ is a good place to start.
@calgary411
Thanks for your detailed response.
Of course I will share experiences once i decide
and move ahead.
So it seems like the time period for CLN is a mystery. I called consulates in Europe only (not Canada). I may call a few more. Maybe Canada is unique:)
with respect to taxes, I was advised and everyone should note that first year tax status may be different than subsequent years (with respect to 30 days and Substantial Presence) if return to USA for more than 10 days after relinquishment.. Just to keep in mind.
I wanted to provide an update to the Renunciation Timeline.
I was part of the “Wild Bunch” that attended the group meeting at the Toronto Embassy last fall.
Humour: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065214/
I renounced my US citizenship on October 27.
Still waiting for my CLN.
Filed 2011 Income taxes for Canada and USA, yesterday.
Completed Form 8854 and FBAR.
Hmm.. it doesn’t appear to say anything about loss of nationality due to relinquishment.
@Calgary – OK, I see now with Terry Gilliam. He renounced before the new laws…
@CDNHOOSIER,
It’s so good to hear from you. Thanks for the info to add to the Relinquishment and Renouncement database. Sounds like you’ve completed all of your “next steps”. Congratulations!!
I see most of the “Wild Bunch” did relinquishment in one appointment? Can you confirm that yours was renunciation as opposed to relinquishment and, if so, did you require just one appointment or two? i.e. did you require a second appointment to complete things on October 27 (or is that the date you all descended on the Toronto consulate)? Did you come away with any copy of what you had signed at renouncement or any kind of receipt? Have you paid your $450 fee?
I hope you receive your CLN soon — hope anyone in Canada receives theirs soon!
and you’ll always have the memory of the “Toronto Wild Bunch”. Thanks for the analogy of the movie description …
… This is correct in that it marks the finale of an era, for the characters and the world they live in. They simply can no longer keep up, the times are changing, technology advancing, and their style of life is getting left behind in the dust that they spent so long galloping through. They abandon their careers for the simpler life of retirement. They enjoy this time, they live their fantasies. During this time the law is always on their tracks, bounty hunters…
@alex, thanks for your comment:
“…with respect to taxes, I was advised and everyone should note that first year tax status may be different than subsequent years (with respect to 30 days and Substantial Presence) if return to USA for more than 10 days after relinquishment.. Just to keep in mind.”
Does anyone have further information regarding this that we should keep in mind?
@calgary411
Yes.
The information is in Publication 519, Section1.
I can’t find anything referring to ’10 days in the US’ but this talks about change in US Presence after June 17, 2008:
http://www.protaxconsulting.com/articles/expatriation.pdf
Old rules before June 17, 2008- US Presence & Tax Consequences After Expatriation:As long as you do not meet the above 2 exceptions, if during the 10 year period following expatriation you
are physically present in the US for more than 30 days per calendar year, you will be treated as a US
resident alien and taxed on your worldwide income for that whole calendar tax year. Requiring the filing of
a resident US income tax return Form 1040. Do not count any days up to a limit of 30 days in which you
performed personal services in the US for an unrelated employer if either of the following apply: 1) You
have ties with other countries- obtained citizenship/ residency of another country after expatriation in
which you/ spouse or either parents were born and you become fully liable for income tax in that country or
2) You are physically present in the US for less than 30 days per calendar year during each of the 10 years
after expatriation.
Expatriation Effective Date- *****New effective after June 16, 2008- definition changes:
You are considered to have expatriated the latter of the date you relinquish US citizenship or terminate
long-term residency. There is no longer effective after June 16, 2008 a requirement to file a Form 8854 to
establish an effective expatriation date.
Former US citizens- You are considered to have relinquished your US citizenship the earliest of: 1) The
date you renounce US citizenship before a diplomatic or consular officer of the US (provided followed by
issuance of certificate of loss of nationality), 2) date you furnish the State Department a signed statement of
voluntary relinquishment of US nationality (provided followed by issuance of certificate of loss of
nationality), 3) date State Department issues issuance of certificate of loss of nationality, or 4) date US
court cancels your certificate of naturalization.
Former Long- Term Residents- You are considered to have terminated your long-term residency the
earliest of: 1) The date you voluntarily relinquish/ abandon your ‘green card’ by filing with DHS Form I-
407 with a US consular or immigration officer, 2) date you became subject to a final administrative order
for removal form the US under the IN Act and actually left the US, 3) dual resident of the US and the
country of new residence has income tax treaty with the US, you are resident of that new country and filed
Form(s) 8833 and 8854.
This is from the renunciation guide: http://renunciationguide.com/Analyzing-Your-Tax-Situation-if-you-Expatriate.html#TimeInUS
How much time you can spend in the U.S. after expatriation and still be taxed as a non-resident
After expatriation, you will be treated as any other citizen of your country is treated. If your citizenship is from a visa-waiver country, you don’t need a visa for visits up to 90 days. If your country is not on the visa-waiver list, you will need to apply for a visa, but barring any unusual circumstances, you will most likely be approved. (See here for our discussion of your legal rights after expatriation).
Regarding U.S. taxes, you will be treated as any other citizen of your country in almost all respects. Assuming you live outside the U.S. and don’t have a green card, you will be taxed as a non-resident non-citizen on any U.S. source earnings, allowing you to benefit from no taxes on interest and capital gains.
However, you will be treated as resident for tax purposes if you spend enough time in the U.S. (including U.S. territorial waters) to meet the “substantial physical presence” test, defined as spending:
At least 31 days in the current year
AND
At least 183 days during the 3 year period that includes the current year and the previous 2 years, where you count all of the days you spend in the U.S. in the current year, 1/3 of the days you spent in the previous year, and 1/6 of the days you spent in the second year before the current year.
In essence, under the the “substantial physical presence test”, you can spend an average of up to 4 months each year in the U.S. and not be resident for tax purposes.
Note that because of the different weights used to count days in each year, there are several permutations of time spent in the U.S. that are possible. For example, you could spend 180 days in year 1, 120 days in year 2, and 110 days in year 3, and still not be considered resident in any of those years.
I can’t find anything referring to ‘returning to the US for more than 10 days’ in the current ruling
Hi
it is on page 10 of Pub 519 under the section De Minimis Presence.
Refers to first year of split residence when you are partly US tax resident and partly not.
Hi, Alex and Calgary. I took a look at IRS pub 519, page 10. My reading of it is that refers to people who were resident in the US in the past year. I think IRS pub 519 is for departing aliens, as opposed to former citizens who were not resident.
yes.
that is correct. i understand that it is for people who live in usa and who expatriate . it refers to that first year where they have dual tax status – part as usa tax resident and part as non resident alien. USA residents who expatriate need to take this into account
@alex and pacifica,
Thanks for the clarification. My mind was not even going there.
Are you resident in the US right now, alex?
Here is another link that explains variants of this:
http://www.infoloom.com/taxmap/pubs/p519-003.htm
@calgary
I am not now but i was earlier in the year.
so I want to be sure to follow all tax regulations correctly and carefully in case decide on expatriaton..
@alex. Good for you for being prepared.
And thanks for introducing this aspect to us. Without knowledge of all this, how easy it would be to get tripped up.
Once again I’m probably posting this in the wrong place but I just wanted to let everyone know that my husband has started filling out his Canadian citizenship application. (There will be a brief delay in sending it in while he waits for his driver’s license renewal to be completed.) I look forward to the day when he and I can be a Canadian couple riding off into the sunset together. We both know we have to get through all the paperwork puzzles soon, before our brains are too old and fuzzy to deal with them. (Actually the citizenship application was easy-peasy compared to pretty much everything the IRS publishes.)
@Thanks for letting us know. It is all part of the process which will eventually be able to go on the Relinquish and Renounce database. One step at a time.
@The person calculating the totals in the document.
I think there is an error in the documents concerning the totals.
There is 1 person for each of the other countries, but for some
there the total is 3. I’m not sure where the error is 🙄