The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
@Quincy, returning 2 months later to sign 4079 for relinquishment seems to be a policy specific to Vancouver. They seem to be doing that with everyone at Van, but we have no reports of such policy elsewhere with relinquishment. In fact, many consulates have seem to have switched to a 1-visit-only policy for renunciation as well as relinquishment.
@calgary411: no receipt, no copy
@tiger: my kids were born after I committed the expatriating act so I’m guessing they wouldn’t qualify even if they wanted to. I never registered them, and no one asked about them.
Hi everyone. I’m the one with the old kryptomite (i.e. green) card who only recently found out that it was giving me US person status without my knowing it. I returned to Canada (home of my birth) in 1994 and haven’t set foot across the border since 1997. Anyway, I am considering doing a I-407 (Abandonment of Lawful Permanent Residence) and I’m wondering if anyone else has done this and will my abandonment be made retroactive to the date I thought I actually had abandoned? I would really like to officially and completely sever my unwanted ties to the US but on the other hand if it requires a FUBAR from me I’m back into a Catch 22 because I refuse to do that.
@Em
I don’t think we’ve had anyone report on checking out of US permanent residency (green card) on Form I-407. If you do this, it will provide further information for the rest of us. The process, unfortunately, looks similar. Might be good to “lose” at any rate.
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=3f443a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=3f443a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD
“Abandoning Permanent Resident Status
You may be found to have abandoned your permanent resident status if you:
1) Move to another country intending to live there permanently
Remain outside of the United States for more than 1 year without obtaining a reentry permit or returning resident visa. However, in determining whether your status has been abandoned, any length of absence from the United States may be considered, even if less than 1 year
2) Remain outside of the United States for more than 2 years after issuance of a reentry permit without obtaining a returning resident visa. However, in determining whether your status has been abandoned any length of absence from the United States may be considered, even if less than 1 year
3) Fail to file income tax returns while living outside of the United States for any period
4) Declare yourself a “nonimmigrant” on your tax returns”
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/article/0,,id=203094,00.html
http://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/green-card.html
(out of date regarding terms for filing Form 8854)
How do I give notice to the Department Of Homeland Security that I terminated my residency status?
You will be considered to have given notice of a termination of residency to the Secretary of Homeland Security as of the date that you complete Form I-407 (Abandonment of Lawful Permanent Resident Status) before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States or at a Port of Entry of the United States before a U.S. immigration official.
What if I have had my green card for less than 8 years out of the last 15 taxable years at the time I revoke or abandon my green card?
You do not need to file a Form 8854 for any reason.
If I am a long-term resident, must I file Form 8854 for the next 10 years after I surrender my green card?
You must file a Form 8854 for each of the 10 tax years after the date of your abandonment of your long-term resident status only if:
(a) your average annual net income tax liability for the 5 years ending before the date of your termination of residency is more than a set amount ($124,000 for 2004, $127,000 for 2005, $131,000 for 2006),
(b) your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your termination of residency, or
(c) you fail to certify on Form 8854 that you have complied with all of your U.S. federal tax obligations for the 5 years preceding the date of your termination of residency.
Failure to file a required Form 8854 in any of the 10 tax years after the date of your termination of residency may result in a $10,000 penalty for each year that the form is required but not filed.
@Em
One thing I’ll note EM as a non US citizen resident in Canada you are covered by the terms of the US Canada Tax Treaty. Technically from the US perspective to claim treaty status you are supposed to fill out form 8854 anyways(there is a separate option 3). In your case it might actually be worthwhile to contact the Canada Revenue Agency and get a ruling that your are a Canadian tax resident under the treaty.
@ calgary411 & Tim
Thank you both for the great information. It seems I’m just a hodge-podge of dids and did nots. I constantly slap myself silly upside the head for my ignorance and stupidity in all of this mess.
I never claimed “nonimmigrant” on our joint tax returns. We just sent them a note to say I was formerly a resident alien (which I thought I was — formerly that is — didn’t know about I-407). Up to now we are tax compliant. My husband is FUBAR compliant but I am not FUBAR compliant and that of course is where those crippling penalties come into play, even though I know, for now, I am protected by the Canadian gov’t. On brief telephone advice from a Vancouver lawyer when the FBARs got nastier I made individual bank accounts for myself and did not FUBAR them because I genuinely thought I was a Canadian citizen — period — no US connection except an American husband. (I never mentioned to the lawyer the green card because it never occurred to me that it was anything but null and void.)
Now another monkey wrench — an 8854 from me! No way! I’m not even close to $2M and I am not about to fill that form in just to satisfy their curiosity. If I haven’t done FUBARs, I’m not likely going to do an 8854 either.
I like the idea of contacting CRA. I’d rather talk to them than the IRS which always ends up in frustration for me. With the IRS I go round and round in telehell just trying to find a non-800 number (most 800s are undialable from Canada) with a human at the end. One time I ended up at the form warehouse talking to a worker there. He was the nicest person (I was looking for someone to complain about the FUBARS to) and he’s the only one who at least commiserated with me (he actually grasped how invasive a FUBAR is) but in the end all he could say was, “Mam I surely do wish I could help but all I can do is find the form and send it to you.”
@Em,
I believe the US IRS has not lived up to what should be their responsibility in providing education. Most of us cannot figure it out by ourselves. That’s why we have to hire expensive legal and accounting professionals — to help protect us from the excessive penalties for doing things incorrectly.
That this all is not a bigger story everywhere is mind-boggling to me — it is sucking so much out of our lives.
Do not for one minute blame yourself for being stupid, ignorant or any such nonsense! We’re all in this together, learning from one another.
@EM
Send a letter describing your situation to the CRA at the following department linked to below requesting a ruling that you are a resident of Canada as defined under the US Canada Tax Treaty. I suspect you will get a better and more timely response from the CRA than you’ll get from any part of the US government.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/txprfssnls/srvcs/prcdrs/menu-eng.html
@ calgary411
That’s kind of you but I still feel stupid, only I seem to be in good company and that actually mitigates things a bit. I am also very form adverse and at the risk of being banned here for posting a seriously long comment I’m going to share with you a letter I once sent regarding FBAR. (Names and numbers omitted to protect the innocent.)
(DATE)
TO: Naomi Jones
Chief, Edit & Error Resolution Branch
Currency Reporting & Compliance Division
Department of the Treasury
Internal Revenue Service
Detroit Computing Center
P.O. Box 33107
Detroit, Michigan
U.S.A. 48232-0l07
Re: Document Control Number (DCN) (14 DIGIT NUMBER)
Dear Madam:
My MOST sincere and humble apologies for neglecting to inform the MOST exalted and almighty Department of the Treasury of the MOST omnipotent and esteemed nation in the universe (namely, the United States of America) of this MOST important piece of information regarding my husband (namely, his date of birth).
How could I have committed such an offence against such a diligent and zealous bureaucracy (namely, The Currency Reporting and Compliance Division)? If even the smallest pillar under the honourable and beloved Internal Revenue Service has been damaged by even the slightest amount by my oversight I will never forgive myself. My only excuse is that I am a mere dot of a person living in an insignificant nation (namely, Canada) which is located to the north of the great nation of the United States of America and I failed to fully appreciate the grave significance of the information I failed so miserably to supply (namely, my husband’s date of birth).
Perhaps, as a Canadian, I should have left the filling out of Form TD F 90-22.l to my American husband but regretfully he does not have the time or the patience to perform this time-consuming yet oh-so-delightful task. I can reassure you, however, that he reviews Form TD F 90-22.l quite solemnly and thoroughly before he signs it and we send it on its way every year to the Department of the Treasury. So my husband bears at least part of the blame for this serious debacle.
My further apologies that you, the very Chief of the Edit and Error Resolution Branch (or was it perhaps one of your staff, acting on your behalf) was so horribly but unintentionally inconvenienced as a result of my abysmal performance regarding the filling out of Form TD F 90-22.l, to the extent that you (or whoever it was who was forced to deal with this matter) was required to send us four pages of documents and a return envelope in order that I may be able to correct my error in failing to fill in the space (the now, never again to be neglected, Space 8 on page 1) requiring my husband’s date of birth. I will, of course, comply with your request to return all the material you sent to us regarding this matter. All four pages are enclosed with this letter and I will neatly stuff them into the generously provided return envelope to which I have already affixed sufficient postage (namely, 65 cents in our lowly Canadian currency). As you can see, I am trying very hard not to burden you again by messing up this step in the process of acquiring forgiveness for my original sin.
So here it is, the vital information you require — and again I apologise for my omission. My husband, (NAME) was born on the (NUMBER) day in the month of (NAME) of the year (NUMBER). As per your instructions, I have also written this information on the facsimile generated from computer stored magnetic data of our Form TD F 90.22.1 (aka Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts) which we sent to the Department of the Treasury this year.
I hope that my husband and I are now, as a result of providing this information, once again falling at least somewhere near the proximity of the good graces of you and your staff at the Edit and Error Resolution Branch of the Currency Reporting and Compliance Division of the Department of the Treasury. My haste in trying to rectify this situation should, I hope, also bode well for us as I am replying to your letter on the very day upon which we received it.
Sincerely yours,
(NAME)
@EM
On second though I actually gave you they wrong part of CRA to contact. You actually need to contact the following department:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/cmp/wh-eng.html
They have a phone number too but it isn’t a 1-800 number so you are going to get hit with long distance charges if you don’t live in Ottawa. I will also mention the department of CRA I linked to above is the place all US Canada tax issue should be directed too inside of CRA.
The following text is from CRA’s website:
A Canadian resident taxpayer is also considered to be a resident of a treaty country under that country’s domestic law, and each country asserts that the taxpayer is a resident of its jurisdiction for purposes of the tax convention. If unresolved, the taxpayer could be subject to tax on the same income in both countries. A request to the Canadian or foreign Competent Authority will be necessary to initiate negotiation between the competent authorities regarding the proper application of the tie breaker rules contained in the residency article of the convention. The taxpayer should approach the competent authority of the country in which the taxpayer asserts residency(CRA if you are a Canadian resident).
@ Tim
Thanks! Gosh you even provided the URL! I really do feel “safer” too dealing with CRA rather than IRS.
@Em:
“With the IRS I go round and round in telehell just trying to find a non-800 number (most 800s are undialable from Canada) with a human at the end.”
Nina Olsen points out somewhere in her report on overseas tax issues that the IRS could have 1-800 service enabled for Canada (specifically) at no extra cost to them.
@Em, Thanks for sharing your letter. All that for one little item they really already had if they could have taken the time to look at a previous year’s form. However, they can never send us anything saying they received our 1040’s, etc., etc., as we get from CRA.
…and why is it we don’t have an IRS presence of any kind in Canada or even a 1-800 number, toll-free? I think it is because IRS people would actually have to be specially trained to deal with our questions and issues. The only advice I’ve ever received from sending email to their HELP line or calling on their dime is to consult with a US tax attorney or US tax accountant.
@Calgary411
I fully believe we can now add “tax collection, enforcement, penalization, litigation and consultation industrial complex” to the list of other self-serving, self-justifying combines that Americans are so good at creating out of thin air. Making it easier for poor saps like us to figure out what’s going on could throw thousands of highly-paid professionals out of work. Couldn’t have that now, could we?
@ Deckard1138
The TEPLiCon Industrial Complex … yes I like that … no I don’t like that … well you know what I mean. It’s like IRSpeak which is anything but clear and concise.
@ calgary 411
“All that for one little item they really already had if they could have taken the time to look at a previous year’s form.”
EXACTLY! On the other hand maybe it’s a good thing they don’t look at previous forms.
renunciationguide.com is a great resource for the renunciation process:
http://renunciationguide.com/Renunciation-Process-Step-By-Step.html
For specific questions, they can be contacted at:
siteadmin@renunciationguide.com
I called a few consulates to ask how long it will take to get an appointment for renunciation, if they will accept it on first visit, and how long will take to get CLN subsequently. So many differences !!!
two questions:
1.anyone know why (or is it possible) that in some consulates they say CLN will take a few months and in others they say a few weeks??
2. anyone see any issues renouncing and then going to USA for summer holiday for 2 months (obviously with foreign passport).
thaks
@alex,
Your type of questions are exactly why we are tracking renunciation / relinquishment experiences at various consulates.
Where do you plan to renounce your US citizenship? In Canada — or elsewhere in the world? You may not be able to make your appointment anywhere you wish; then again you may be lucky and be able to.
Since we’ve been tracking, we don’t have anyone reporting having gotten their CLN in Canada — most consulates in Canada “say” about a year, give or take to get your CLN; but it has been over that “guestimate” for some.
However, if you will look at the statistics above under ” Rest of the World,” those renunciants report getting their CLN’s much quicker. We don’t know why but think in some instances it is because those who are renouncing need the CLN to get citizenship for the country they are residing in.
There seems to be no rhyme or reason or one standard of procedure for ALL consulates.
Also, some consulates give a “receipt” or “copy of what you have signed when you renounce (without an official seal)” but at other consulates you go away empty-handed, really having nothing to prove that you have renounced and are waiting for your CLN. When asked what to do about crossing the border, some consulates have advised to just tell them at the border that you are in the process. Who knows — without proof, It may be up to the discretion of the border guard you deal with to let you into the US.
Once, you have crossed the border, I would think that being on vacation in the States for a period of two months, you would be OK…
From the Renunciation Guide: http://renunciationguide.com/Analyzing-Your-Tax-Situation-if-you-Expatriate.html#TimeInUS
How much time you can spend in the U.S. after expatriation and still be taxed as a non-resident
After expatriation, you will be treated as any other citizen of your country is treated. If your citizenship is from a visa-waiver country, you don’t need a visa for visits up to 90 days. If your country is not on the visa-waiver list, you will need to apply for a visa, but barring any unusual circumstances, you will most likely be approved. (See here for our discussion of your legal rights after expatriation).
Regarding U.S. taxes, you will be treated as any other citizen of your country in almost all respects. Assuming you live outside the U.S. and don’t have a green card, you will be taxed as a non-resident non-citizen on any U.S. source earnings, allowing you to benefit from no taxes on interest and capital gains.
However, you will be treated as resident for tax purposes if you spend enough time in the U.S. (including U.S. territorial waters) to meet the “substantial physical presence” test, defined as spending:
At least 31 days in the current year
AND
At least 183 days during the 3 year period that includes the current year and the previous 2 years, where you count all of the days you spend in the U.S. in the current year, 1/3 of the days you spent in the previous year, and 1/6 of the days you spent in the second year before the current year.
In essence, under the the “substantial physical presence test”, you can spend an average of up to 4 months each year in the U.S. and not be resident for tax purposes.
Note that because of the different weights used to count days in each year, there are several permutations of time spent in the U.S. that are possible. For example, you could spend 180 days in year 1, 120 days in year 2, and 110 days in year 3, and still not be considered resident in any of those years.
Unfortunately, we don’t have the real answers — there are none!
(When you do renounce, consider letting us know your experience so we can include that in our statistics.)
Good luck to you!!
@Calgary – we need to find out why Terry Gilliam can “only stay for 30 days.” I’ve seen many references to this; the same references stating that anyone else from the UK can stay for longer.
I think another downside to renunciation is that gun ownership is out-of-the-question for renunciants who are in the USA. I don’t know of any other negatives, but it would be nice if someone could find them.
@calgary; re:”and why is it we don’t have an IRS presence of any kind in Canada or even a 1-800 number, toll-free…”
Yes, wouldn’t it make sense to be trying to help one of the largest groups of US ‘persons’ ‘abroad’ with their ‘foreign’ tax and account questions?
I believe that the 800 number question for those in Canada (and elsewhere) was mentioned in a previous year’s report by the Taxpayer’s Advocate …
‘course, that’s the same IRS illogic that has them cancelling the IRS services in Canada – because of ‘budget cuts’ while continuing (limited hours) in Europe….
@ geeez
Maybe it has something to do with TAXES and being a “covered expatriate”????
The Picket Line — 22 December 2009
5:00 pm / 21 December 2009by David Gross, at The Picket Line
22 December 2009
Terry Gilliam, Monty Python’s Yankee animator and director of such masterpieces as Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Brazil and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, recently told an interviewer why he renounced his American citizenship to become a taxpatriate:
Mother Jones: In 2006, you renounced your American citizenship to be a full-time Brit. Seems pretty extreme.
Terry Gilliam: Well, I don’t live there. I got tired of my taxes paying for exciting little wars around the world. Then I discovered that when I died, my wife would probably have to sell our house to pay for the taxes in America. The fact that Bush was there made it easier.
Mother Jones: Did you get any shit for your decision?
Terry Gilliam: Not really. It was very funny, ’cause you have to go down to the US Embassy and say, I want out, and then they counsel you and you go away for a month and think on it. And then you come back and they beg you to stay. Sorry!
Mother Jones: They counsel you? What do they say?
Terry Gilliam: Oh nothing, just, “We’re great friends! We love your work! Oh, don’t leave us!” Sorry!
Mother Jones: Is it true that they limit your movement?
Terry Gilliam: Oh yes, I’m on probation. I can’t be in America more than 30 days a year for 10 years.
From Wikipedia:
Personal life
Gilliam has been married to the British make-up and costume designer Maggie Weston since 1973. She worked on Monty Python’s Flying Circus, many of the Python movies, and Gilliam’s movies up to The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. They have three children, Amy (b. 1978), Holly (b. 1980), and Harry (b. 1988), who have also appeared in several of Gilliam’s films.
In 1968, Gilliam obtained British citizenship, then held dual American and British citizenship for the next 38 years. In January 2006 he renounced his American citizenship.[61] In an interview with Der Tagesspiegel,[62] he described the action as a protest against then President George W. Bush, and in an earlier interview with The Onion AV Club,[63] he also indicated that it was related to concerns about future tax liability for his wife and children. As a result of renouncing his citizenship, Gilliam is only permitted to spend 30 days per year in the United States, fewer than ordinary British citizens.[62] Gilliam also maintains a residence in Italy near the Umbria-Tuscany border. He has been instrumental in establishing the annual Umbria Film Festival,[64] held in the nearby hill town of Montone.
@ geeez. A bit more.
Here’s why:
Gilliam renounced in January 2006.
Expatriation after June 3, 2004 and before June 16, 2008
The American Jobs Creation Act (AJCA) of 2004 amends IRC section 877, which provides for an alternative tax regime for certain, expatriated individuals. Amended IRC 877 eliminates the tax avoidance criteria for imposition of the expatriation tax on certain types of income for 10 years following expatriation, and creates objective criteria to impose the tax on individuals with an average income tax liability for the 5 prior years of $127,000 for tax year 2005 ($131,000 for 2006; $136,000 for 2007; $139,000 for 2008) or a net worth of $2,000,000 on the date of expatriation. In addition, it requires individuals to certify to the IRS that they have satisfied all federal tax requirements for the 5 years prior to expatriation and requires annual information reporting for each taxable year during which an individual is subject to the rules of IRC 877.
Further, expatriated individuals will be subject to U.S. tax on their worldwide income for any of the 10 years following expatriation in which they are present in the U.S. for more than 30 days, or 60 days in the case of individuals working in the U.S. for an unrelated employer.
Finally, even if they do not meet the monetary thresholds for imposition of the IRC 877 expatriation tax, the new law (per IRC 7701(n)) provides that individuals will continue to be treated as U.S. citizens or long-term residents for U.S. tax purposes until they have notified the Secretary of the Department of State or of Homeland Security of expatriation or termination of residency. The implementation date of this provision is retroactive and applies to expatriations occurring after June 3, 2004. The expatriation is not effective until the notification and tax satisfaction certifications are filed with the IRS and the Department of State or of Homeland Security.
I think another downside to renunciation is that gun ownership is out-of-the-question for renunciants who are in the USA. I don’t know of any other negatives, but it would be nice if someone could find them.
@geeez
Don’t forget about “the transporting of hazardous materials by renunciants and other activities”, whatever that means. Could mean doing the Mambo while eating a Big Mac for all I know.
Here’s the full reference:
7 FAM 1267 RENUNCIATION AND THE BRADY ACT
(CT:CON-277; 01-05-2009)
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Brady Act) of 1993, Public Law 103-159 — Persons Who Renounce U.S. Citizenship Ineligible to Purchase Firearms, provides that it is unlawful to sell firearms to persons for whom a finding of loss of nationality due to renunciation has been made.
Subsequent laws have extended this restriction to the transporting of hazardous materials by renunciants and other activities. The U.S. Department of State and the FBI entered into an interagency agreement on the sharing of information concerning renunciants of May 1998 (CA FBI 1998 MOU)―persons who lose U.S. citizenship under Section 349(a)(5) INA. See 18 U.S.C. 922G Unlawful Acts — Sale of Firearms to Renunciants; Federal Register 68, 86, May 5, 2003 Transporting Hazardous Materials By Renunciants. For additional information, see 7 FAM 1244.