The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
@DavidM
I totally agree with Calgary. Your wife has not been a citizen of the U.S. since 1983. She has no tax obligations to the IRS. There has been more than one cross-border tax lawyer on this site (Mopsick and Mitchell) who both said there was no tax obligation.
@DavidM
I think Calgary, Tiger & RogerC are correct. Your wife has not been a citizen of the US for nearly 30 years and I believe those who relinquished before 1995 (or 1994?) – your wife is 1983 – have/had no obligation to even inform the State Dept. I believe you basically have nothing to say to the IRS.
@DavidM – Looking at the “Did you relinquish before Feb 6 1995” thread on the righthand side here, there’s no need to inform either State Dept or IRS.
In general, a recent mention on the English Forum site here in Switzerland says Bern are doing renunciation appointments on Tuesdays and Thursdays, with around a month to wait for the appointment after the necessary paperwork has been requested. Presumably this is their version of the wait for a 2nd appointment. The good news is it’s only taking around 5 weeks from renunciation to receiving the CLN. Hoping to get things underway in the New Year for me. OH has had some health problems lately which has delayed my applying.
*@Arrow, @Roger
Package came back with 8854 form for 2011. No 1040s or any other forms – which makes sense if we believed the 2008 HIRE act provisions applied.
First time I’ve looked at 8854 as we’ve concentrated on getting the CLN first.
First time my wife has even considered the tax side of this journey. She’s someone who follows the rules! None of this paying someone cash for a renovation to get a lower price (and permit them to avoid their tax obligations on part of their income). And this approach had carried over now. We’d thought of filling in the 8854 & 5 years of 1040NR forms – where we’d owe $0 each year as we have no US sourced income. But it looks like they want dates we’d been in the US each tax year in the “Schedule OI—Other Information” section of the 1040NR. Not just the total days we’d been in the US, but the entry and departure dates. Who keeps information like that for 2008, 2009, etc? Certainly not us.
And the one thing we won’t do is submit a tax return that’s false. A false return is a crime, though it’s difficult to see anyone being pursued for erroneous dates as long as you’re not approaching the number of days in the US that would be large enough that you need to file 1040 forms, not 1040NRs. And we’d be nowhere near that. We’ve never been in the States for 3 weeks any year in our lives, and I think you need to total ~6 months over any 3 year period to be required to file a1040 form.
The only attraction in filing 1040NRs & the 8854 would be if we got an IRS note saying “thanks for filing, you’re all clear”. Then there would not be even a niggling concern if we wanted to go into the US on holiday or something. But – that’ll never happen; at least, I’ve never heard of anyone getting such a “case closed” response from IRS.
So we’ll think some more on what’s fair, what’s best for us regardless of what’s fair, and what risks our decisions actually leave us with.
“A false return is a crime” The enforcement of unjust laws which violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the US Constitution, that’s a crime. Disobey such laws is called civil disobedience.
@DavidM
Very interesting that the Vancouver consulate sends the package with Form 8854. I don’t believe anyone reporting from any of the other consulates, has reported receiving that form. Sounds to me that it is done here in Vancouver (not in DC where the CLN is mailed from) and is one more flagrant example of the consulate in Vancouver making up its own rules. I have tried to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it is getting harder and harder to do that.
@DavidM
I have just looked at the 2011 form 8854. You should read it carefully. Question 4 states: check the applicable box for your EXPATRIATION DATE
Your wife’s date of expatriation was 1983 and it states that on the CLN. She does not need to file the 8854, IMO.
*DavidM, I got a small check in the mail. I don’t know what it is for, but I assume that it means: “thanks for filing, you’re all clear”.
*DavidM, a lot of us have the same problem that your wife does regarding Form 8854. It appears to apply only to people who expatriated after June 4, 2004, but internally it and its instructions say that
“You are considered to have relinquished your U.S. citizenship on the earliest of the following dates.
“1. The date you renounced your U.S. citizenship before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States (provided that the voluntary renouncement was later confirmed by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality).
“2. The date you furnished to the State Department a signed statement of your voluntary relinquishment of U.S. nationality confirming the performance of an expatriating act (provided that
the voluntary relinquishment was later confirmed by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality).”
It’s point 2 that is the problem. It seems that those of us who performed an expatriating act by taking out non-US citizenship may be considered by the IRS to have as our date of relinquishment the date we signed the forms at the consulate, even though the expatriating act itself was decades ago. However, that IRS interpretation itself was only adopted in 2004. Most of us don’t see how it can be applied retroactively to those of us who committed our expatriating acts before 2004, but we don’t know of any court test of that.
Clear as mud? (I think it’s straight from a marriage of Franz Kafka and Monty Python.)
See also at this site: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/tag/form-8854/
Anyway, I expatriated long before 2004 and I’m not going to file form 8854 with the IRS.
My frustrations with the US Consulate, Vancouver, began within days of
completing a first interview on June 6 of this year. After that interview I
supplied the consulate with further information as requested, while also
mentioning again that I would be traveling to California in July and— having
been previously told that a Canadian passport would be sufficient, if by then
my second interview had transpired—I required an appointment for my second
interview asap. This journey had been explained both via email and at the
first interview. The submitted records showed that my US passport had
expired—hence my concern with a border problem, not to mention a number of
non-refundable paid reservations for the California trip.
The short of this is that no answer ensued, and after further
emails—ultimately, entreaties—the long was no different. California came and
went, with nary a mention of a US passport at the border.
Back in Canada, still nothing came until finally at the end of August I received an email
thanking me for submitting documentation (11 weeks previously) and stating
that I was now ready to proceed with my “final interview,” and that I should
respond by making “…an appointment for your loss of nationality.”
There was of course no way to make that appointment without first hearing again
from the consulate. Hence, I responded almost immediately with an appointment request
(the official line comes across as forever incredulous, hence tediously repeatable) and then,
yet again, more silence.
The August email seemed to imply that requesting a second appointment was
tantamount to getting one quickly because that is the way the
first one had gone. But when several weeks had passed, I wrote
again. Nothing. And then again. Silence. And yet still again—no response. I
could think of no way to excuse it. It began to be alarming. Were they even
getting my emails? It was inexplicable. Then outrageous and stupid—like
droning clandestinely for peace and the liberty of making unseen war.
I was caught in conflations of insignificance with the gigantism of the vast American sphere.
Finally, with November half gone—and thanks to the investigations of Isaac
Brockers, Calgary 411 and pacifica777—I wrote an email to
Minister Counselor of Consular Affairs, Sylvia Johnson, US Embassy, Ottawa.
Ms. Johnson responded the following morning, writing that she had “asked” the
Vancouver consulate…etc., etc., and within minutes of receiving her email
I had a phone call (on the emergency line) from “Allison” at the Vancouver
consulate, asking me to call back (on the emergency line) in order to book
an appointment for my second interview.
After months of not being sure I existed, I nearly passed out, proving that I did.
Allison was polite and apologetic, a model of all that a recusant could
desire. At first she said they were booked until the end of January, then
she quickly countered with the divulgence of an opening in three days. Beginning
to balloon with temerity from her kindness, I countered with what about next week,
Tuesday or perhaps Wednesday—and morning? She said wait a minute, went away,
and came back with sure, how about Wednesday; would you like 0830 or 1100?
In a couple of minutes I had moved from insignificance to having a toe in the shoe
of gigantism. It was a real rush and a tiny brush with Power.
I shall add that there must be no cynicism here: I sincerely thank Sylvia Johnson for the
precision and kindness of her intervention and wish all comrades in distress their own
eventual and equally delectable fare.
Cir
*Glad to hear you’ve finally got your 2nd appointment booked, but it’s a real shame that it took intervention from the Consular Affairs Minister to get things moving for you. I can understand one e-mail being missed, but several is ridiculous. Why Vancouver should be so bad at this, while other embassies in Canada are much more efficient, is beyond me.
*@AnonAnon
We’re now strongly leaning that way too – not sending in any 8854 form with 2011 financial data. My wife relinquished her citizenship long ago in the early 80’s, when there was no requirement to notify the State Department of your relinquishment, and only those who were relinquishing for tax purposes had any further burden – submitting 10 years of 1040NR tax forms from the date of your relinquishment. My wife didn’t relinquish for tax reasons, so we just can’t see any way submitting the 8854 form makes any sense for us (with it’s inevitable risk of an inadvertent, HUGELY EXPENSIVE error trying to translate our country’s financial structure into very foreign US terminology).
Still a faint chance we’d change our minds, but it’s now looking pretty unlikely.
*Two of the 5 children of President Morsi were born in the US when he, as a private citizen, was living in the US. He earned his PhD and then was a professor at a University in Southern California. These two children, now adults, are not all ashamed of their US citizenship and, in fact, appear to be very proud of it.
Here is an article published in July describing the criticism they have received for being and retaining US citizenship . There is no mention of their being subject to or paying US taxes on their non-US income. I wonder if the IRS is pursuing them like it pursues dual US – Canadian citizens? Living and working in Saudi Arabia, where there is no income tax, presumably the son would have no foreign tax credts to offset his US tax on income earned there.
http://www.joeazer.com/2012/07/morsi-and-his-american-kids.html#!/2012/07/morsi-and-his-american-kids.html.
*Roger ” ….I wonder if the IRS is pursuing them like it pursues dual US – Canadian citizens?….”
Doesn’t the IRS have a whistle-blower program?
Wouldn’t actually be a very gentlemanly like conduct, but hey shoudn’t they be paying thier “Fair Share” too 😉
*I’ll whistle-blow on myself tonight. I had requested to check my social security benefits but they sent me a social security benefits check instead, even though I’m not eligible for the next 30 years. So, I’ll have to report the glitch in the system.
*SwissPinoy,
I am retired and receive US Social Security retirement benefits. Several years back when I first started receiving these benefits, in error I received a duplicate payment check. I contacted SS by telephone and they specifically instructed me to not send the duplicate check back until I received specific instructions. This check had been direct deposited in my bank account.
So I waited several months until I finally received instructions to return the duplicate amount that had been sent me in error. So I did. There was a long delay before the check was cashed and debited against my bank account. I received several letters during the interim demanding that I return the overpayment, to which I responded that I had already done this almost immediately upon receipt of the return instructions. Finally, after several months, the payment check I had sent was finally cashed and debited against my bank account
It was indeed frustrating dealing with Social Security Administration. That was about 17 years ago.
So many mistakes by these big Government organizations. Always blamed on the system, the computers. When I was working we were told that behind the computer were the operators and the programmers and the analysts — so, indeed it was usually some human error causing a problem — humans that told those computers what to do, probably not the computers themselves. Hardware does fail, but with the IRS, Social Security systems, is it usually or always another glitch in the system? Or are their many mistakes, including increasing fraud, a problem of number and competence of employees, not enough oversight, not enough funding to solve all their problems? How are they ever going to deal with more and more paper from outside the shores of the US?
*DavidM
I think you mentioned your wife consulted an immigration/tax attorney prior to relinquishing Did he/she have any advice about filing 8854?
The purpose of this post is to advise everyone, and to reiterate an earlier post some months ago, that, at least in the case of my wife and me, crossing the US border with two CLNs is NOT an issue.
We drove across the US border at Cornwall ON/Massena NY last week to visit family in the US for American Thanksgiving. My wife has had her relinquishment CLN approval for four months now; I’ve had mine for nearly 36 years. Plenty of time for State and Border Services to annotate both of us on their computer network. We were carrying photocopies of our CLNs, but we never needed to show them.
Border crossing was slow; everyone was being asked to open their trunks. Questioning as to where one was going, for how long, and why, was a bit more protracted than normal. Given past conversations I’ve had with people in Canadian border services, I know this usually is because the computer system is running slowly. They were quite obviously stalling for time while the computers could check passport and vehicle license numbers.
“Our” border guard had ample time to inspect our Canadian passports (both showing US birthplaces) in detail and at leisure. At no time was any mention made of our birthplaces, nor of our CLNs. Other than the slower crossing due to more leisurely questioning than normal, it was an uneventful border crossing.
@SwissPinoy, are you still elligible for social security now that you renounced?
The logic would imply yes, since you contributed to the system, but sometimes, laws defy logic 🙂
I always asked myself the question, not being a US citizen: I am forced to contribute to the system, but if I never naturalize, will I be able to enjoy the benefits later?
*Christophe, I haven’t read anything stating that I won’t get Social Security. I just spoke with the Social Security administration and they didn’t understand why I got the check, advising me to contact the embassy who would help me to return the check. She stated that it was impossible for me to have accidentally requested this replacement check on their web site.
While waiting, I created a new account on their web site. It says that I paid in $9,301 and $2,171 into medicare over 10 years. My benefit in 27 years will would be $511/month except that I’ll only get about 75 cents for each dollar after 2033 and that the WEP penalty might reduce it by up to $384. The check that I got has a value of $194.66 and is dated exactly one month after I renounced.
@ Christophe
My American mother-in-law who lived in Canada many years ago for awhile and did not personally contribute to CPP received CPP cheques from Canada (a portion of her deceased husband’s CPP entitlement). She was not a dual USA/CND citizen. She had merely been a temporary landed immigrant in Canada while her husband was working here. It is supposed to work both ways but I haven’t any direct experience with how well it works with SS cheques going to Canada. My husband should be eligible for SS but that will be after he renounces and we’re not sure that we want to get entangled with the USA in any manner at that point — including trying to apply for my husband’s SS. We’re afraid it would be a chance for the IRS to latch onto him and all the US filing we desperately want to leave behind us eventually would start all over again, despite a CLN in hand. Of course, my mother-in-law living in the USA was not forced to file Canadian taxes simply because she received a small CPP payment each month but we all know the pitfalls of the USA’s citizenship based taxation system and after FATCA it could get worse. We had counted on my husband’s SS but now we’re not sure it would be worth risking a re-entry into the IRS abyss. It might be best to lower our retirement expectations from minimal to survival mode and pass on SS. It’s something to think about but it’s in the future and we’ll have to see what happens in the ‘tweentime.
*@ Hijacked2012
<sigh> Never leave this site while composing a comment without saving the text. <sigh again>
I don’t have time now to rewrite what I’d written before losing it all. I’ll try to make the time in the next few days.
*@EM
There should be no problem receiving Social Security benefits from the US in Canada. US citizenship or green card status is not required in order to receive US social security benenfits which are based on how much the person paid into it while working. Such benefits paid outside of the US are subject to a 30% withholding tax on 85% of the monthly benefits. It is recommened that benefits be deposted directly in the foreign bank account of the retiree where then retiree lives.
It is a common practice for foreign citizens and persons who have become naturalized US citizens who, after a lifetime of working in the US, to go back to the foreign country from which they came to spend their latter years. And a signficant number of US citizen retirees live in Mexico, Costa Rica, Belize, etc. where the cost of living is much less than in the US. Even before the fall of the Iron Curtain I recall reading that there were large numbers of Polish persons who had lived and worked in Chicago who went back to Poland where they could live like Kings on their Social Security retirement. About the only countries where the SS Administration does not send benefits is to Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc.
That’s the way it is today. But who knows what it will be like 20 or 30 years from now?
@ Roger
“That’s the way it is today. But who knows what it will be like 20 or 30 years from now?”
With the FATCA fiasco I’m actually worried what will happen in 2 or 3 years from now. 🙁