The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
A lawyer is helpful when you run into problems, such as the consular officials are being blockheads. Relinquishment is not a two visit thing: at the Toronto consulate Mrs. A said when you come back for your next visit, I insisted: “I am relinquishing not renouncing”–and she said, “Oh, yeah, right. You are already not a US citizen.” In other words, you don’t have to go in twice at all. You just simply insist on your right to inform them of your loss of citizenship.
*@Dawid,
One person gave up on Vancouver and completed renunciation in one appointment at the Calgary US Consulate.
All reports of renunciations in Calgary that we have on the database, all recent, show only one appointment required. When I made my Calgary Consulate January 2012 appointment in November of 2011 (since cancelled until I have all my ducks in a row, to be rescheduled), the Calgary Consulate procedure was for two appointments. Calgary’s procedure seems to have changed about the time of the change of $450 fee being collected up front (not upon receipt of the CLN).
It is troubling indeed the different procedures, varying wait times for appointments, number of appointments required, whether or not one leaves the Consulate with copy of what was signed (so a person has something to show at a border crossing, if nothing else) and the times reported, from one Consulate to another, one country to another, for receipt of the Certificate of Loss of Nationality.
@Arrow, thanks for letting us know of the further different procedure in Vancouver for your wife’s relinquishment. It is not right that she would have to pay a $450 fee when others have not for their relinquishments, even if a small price for freedom. Whether it is prudent to make waves is another matter, but is another wrong in all this.
@ladybug,
Thanks for your additional interesting comment on the process for the Vancouver US Consulate for your renunciation (vs relinquishment for Arrow’s wife and for Dawid). I hope you will share the rest of the process you encounter there. Good luck!
*Thanks to all for your comments on the second appointment. I can’t stand all the heel dragging but at least they seem to be moving.
@Dawid,
I have an interim report back, and on the basis of two distinct individual cases (both expected to be renunciations) nearing end of process, current gap between first and second appointment in Vancouver seems to be three months plus, and more if there is any lag in paperwork submission or if any detail raises a question.
@calgary411
I really wish for those of us in Vancouver, it was possible to determine why the consulate here would require a second appointment for a ‘relinquishment’. It makes no sense at all that anyone who performed the expatriating act resulting in ‘relinquishment’, decades ago, would have to be put through the agony of the wait. It should be obvious that there is absolutely nothing more to ‘think about’, the individual is not going to ‘change their mind’. After all, they only want the piece of paper they would have received years and years ago, if only they had known they needed that piece of paper.
Either Vancouver’s consulate is completely inefficient, short staffed (but then why require people to return), or perhaps there are more people here wanting to relinquish or renounce. But again, put them through in one appointment. Perhaps I have become paranoid, but I suspect something sinister.
Hi, tiger.
I wish it were possible to determine as well why Vancouver requires a second appointment for either relinquishment or renunciation (i.e, we’re showing from reports only one appointment for renunciations in Calgary; we don’t have any data on relinquishments there).
There seems to be no one standard of procedure between one US Consulate and another. Who is the head hancho above all US Consulates; are the “rules” set down in a standard procedures manual; does each Consulate get to determine its own procedures? In Canada would we try to get this information from the uncommunicative US Ambassador to Canada, David Jacobson? Who could we put this question to?
@tiger
I suspect there are several reasons for the delay on relinquishment — but the most likely is that they have to do some checking before they’ll approve it and send it on to Washington. They want to confirm that you a) don’t have/never asked for a US passport, b) have never voted in a US election, c) have spent only minimal amounts of time in the US, d) have never filed any tax returns — etc. Any one of those puts you in the “renounce” camp.
They say it’s to give you time to think carefully — but I’m betting that the real reason is to avoid inadvertently shipping off an approved CLN application to Washington, only to find out that you are not really eligible to do that.
Just a hunch. I’ve been told that there are a lot of applications pending in Vancouver — and that’s from a lawyer who makes his money by taking clients through the process.
Once my wife has made her second appointment, I’ll post it here. And of course I’ll post a blow-by-blow account of the actual appearance.*
@calgary and Arrow
Thanks for both your posts. I really have changed – naive to paranoid. One of my sons recently told me ‘it did not look good on me’. So better watch that.
Arrow what you say does make sense – I can see they have to check things out but I still think the process in Vancouver should be like other consulates – one appointment, send it off to Washington (head office of state dept), check out the evidence, issue the CLN. It sounds like that doesn’t happen for at least a year + anyway.
I look forwad to hearing all about your wife’s second appointment. Perhaps I will soon get up the courage to book my first appointment. I am still so afraid to expose my three sons to the DOS and perhaps the IRS. At this point, they cross the border with no exposure.
For whatever good it will do those living in BC: as far as I can tell from the data we have from the Toronto Consulate, no one who has taken a relinquishment case to Toronto has needed more than one appointment nor has been told about any $450 fee, never mind asked to pay up front. This includes two people I know personally and have advised throughout their process.
It is difficult to understand how the Vancouver consulate can deviate from the way things are done in Toronto (also in Halifax) re relinquishments. And by the way, as far as I know the consulates don’t do any of the checking mentioned above (e.g. re whether you have a US passport), I believe all that is done in Washington, where the main delay seems to be.
Also be aware there is no requirement for you to use the consulate nearest your home, you can go to any consulate in Canada for either a renunciation or a relinquishment. If you’re asked why you haven’t gone to the closest, just say it was more convenient given your personal schedule. They can’t turn you away or hassle you about this; I know for a fact you can pick any consulate in Canada, because I’ve seen a letter from the office in Washington that approves CLNs addressed to a Canadian who tried to get a CLN by mail and was told they had to appear before a consular official but it could be at the embassy or any consulate in Canada. This letter was sent to someone living in Ottawa, so obviously Washington doesn’t care whether that person went to the embassy or somewhere else (the person went to Toronto because of some bad experiences we’ve heard of re the embassy).
BINGO! I received my letter re second appointment from the Vancouver Consulate today and it is similar to the one that Arrow described above yesterday. I have all the documentation they require that I bring (with the exception of the Xpresspost envelope I have yet to purchase) so it will be interesting to see how soon the second appointment can be made.
Regarding the discussion about having to make two appointments for relinquishment at Vancouver, here’s my take on that. I learned when making my first appointment for renouncing that you have to make your appointment on the Notarial and Other
Services email address on their website. When you do this there is no place to include any text telling them why you are making the appointment. They don’t know your reason until you get there, so at that first appointment they tell you what you need to provide for your relinquishment/renunciation – thus, the second appointment for relinquishers AFTER you find out what you could have brought to the first appointment if you had known. So I think that may be part of the reason that requiring two appointments for relinquishers has become a part of their protocol in Vancouver. Also, the documentation requirements at different consulates are different so even if you’ve brought docs with you the first time they probably want something else that you didn’t think of.
In my case, I sent an email first to the ACS email address on the website and told them I wanted an appointment to renounce. They wrote back and told me the first step is
to make the appointment on the Notarial and Other Services email address and that I would have to have 2 appointments. They also told me to bring proof of U. S. citizenship and of other citizenship currently held (they would not have told me this if I had not first written to ACS). In addition to this, since I knew basically what is required for the process, I took all the completed forms and all the original documents that I could think of that they might require. So at that first meeting they copied a lot of that for my file and for the second meeting I will not have as much to take.
Looking forward to Arrow’s report on his wife’s final meeting and I will inform you as well after mine comes about. 🙂
For what it’s worth I will second what Schubert said about the work not being done at the consulate. When my wife and I went to relinquish in January (on a Monday) the last thing we were told was that all the paperwork would be in Washington by that Friday.
@Ladybug
I am curious on what documents are needed. I would assume things like birth certificate, marriage certificate (indicative of name change), Canadian citizenship papers, Citizenship certificate, DS 4079 form filled in for relinquishers/another document for renouncers. What else did they want?
*tiger
For first renunciation visit, in addition to my US passport and Canadian passport, the items I took that they were interested in were: Canadian Citizenship Card, Canadian Citizenship Certificate, Social Security Card, Birth Certificate, Form 4079 Request for Determination of Possible Loss of US Citizenship, my renunciation of US citizenship statement (not required but they copied it because I had prepared one), and wanted to know my last US address.
Items I took that they were not interested in: marriage license (no name change), landed immigration identification record (some consulates have asked for landed immigrant papers but they were not interested in mine at Vancouver).
In the consulate letter regarding second meeting, items listed to bring for that meeting included some items I had taken to the first meeting (such as passports, citizenship card, etc.), some items they show as “on file” and do not require me to bring again (although I may anyway). Documentation fee of US $450 to be paid at 2nd appointment can be paid in US cash or Canadian equivalent or credit card. No personal cheques.
I assume I will sign the 4079, 4080 and 4082 forms when I go for second meeting.
You should be able to tell whether you renounced or relinquished by the number after the “349 A” in your cancelled U.S. passport and the CLN (certificate of loss of nationality).
More details here:
http://www.turning-japanese.info/2012/06/how-do-you-know-if-you-relinquished-or.html
@ladybug
Thanks for the info re ‘what to bring’ to meeting. Glad to hear Vancouver consulate did not ask for landed immigration identification document. I seem to have misplaced mine – probably disposed of it in 1972 when I became a citizen of Canada. I do have my citizenship documents from the “Access to Information” people and they have marked on them that they saw the landing documents.
Now I just need the courage to book the appointment. I am so afraid of exposing my three sons to the ‘jaws of the devil’.
Also reported:
In one particular current Vancouver renunciation, the time gap separating date
of receipt of mailed final instructions (which includes advising email to
consulate to ask for appointment) and date of appointment scheduled for
renunciation measures 11 working days. This shows evidence of being about the
tightest possible time frame for this part of the process unless the Vancouver
consulate shortens its turnaround time.
*tiger
I wish I could bolster your courage to book that appointment as I think you would find there would be no negative exposure of your sons in this process. Weren’t they born in Canada? Your dealings with the consulate likely will not involve any mention of your family. Your relinquishment is all about you when you visit the consulate, and all the people I dealt with there were very nice and not at all intimidating. You can only make this choice if you feel ready, but I think if you take that first step and make the appointment you’ll be so glad that you’ve started the process and, like me, when you eventually schedule that final appointment you’ll feel relief that you got the ball rolling when you did. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
@calgary411
Thanks for the information about time gap between final instructions letter and final appointment. I was hoping it would be as quick as the first appointment after first contacting the consulate, but had no information on the timing of this step – so this helps.
For Relinquishment, one of the forms required is 4079?
Bureau of Consular Affairs Form 4079, Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
13. What ties do you retain with the United States, for example:
(g) Have you registered your children as citizens of the United States? Yes___ No___
Why do they ask / is this a “trick” question / information gathering on our children?
I don’t think they are trying to gather info about your children. It is, however, a trick question because if you answer yes and it was after your expatriating act then it means you didn’t *intend* to relinquish and they can turn you down for a CLN.
@Ladybug, Thanks for the encouragement. And yes, my sons were all born in Canada. However, they were born, prior to my becoming a Canadian.
Several months ago I was adamant that I did not want to go anywhere near the consulate. I have defnitely moved from that position. More and more, I think I realize that could be the only way I will ever have the closure on this whole mess. I don’t like what it has done to me, nor who I have become.
@calgary411
Yes, I had seen that question on the form and having become so paranoid, I begin to think of it as a way of gathering info on my sons. I never registered my sons at an embassy or consulate because quite honestly, I never thought of them as American.
@all, You have no reason to fear the renunciation process. I will add one more voice to all those that have said that everyone at the consulate were professional and friendly. To those that feel intimidated by the security, I will say that the security was the friendliest of the bunch, perhaps because this is a less formal position. The others were not unfriendly, just more what I would call bureaucratic, no much different than trying to renew a drivers license. The sales pitch itself to stay an American, sounded very very very much like when someone was trying to sell me life insurance a few years ago.
@tiger — I never registered my Canadian-born “Accidental American” kids either and my son will remain in limbo because I am told I cannot renounce on his behalf (I will not register him as a US citizen, with the consequences of having to stay on this side of the border as any travelling he would do would be with me and it wouldn’t be hard to deduce that he is my son, even after I have successfully renounced.) My daughter did get a US passport and worked in Seattle for almost eight years. She will start her renunciation process after she finishes her further schooling at the end of this month.
@Calgary411
I realize in the eyes of the U.S. my adult children would all be considered ‘Accidental Americans’. And if I understand things correctly, although I have the right to ‘relinquishment’ as I took out Canadian citizenship and thus performed an expatriating act back in 1972, my children would have to renounce.
I have never done anything since that time to lead the US to believe that I wished to retain US citizenship.Therefore, I believe I could apply for and be granted a CLN based on my former relinquishment.
It is the fear that DOS can then identify my sons as ‘Accidental Americans’ and cause them difficulties both at the border and with the IRS.
@tiger — I hear you!