The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_nationality_law
Yikes.. if you are naturalised, you can’t live outside of Paraguay for 3 years or you will lose the nationality!
@renounce – put this message in the bottle for 25 years later:
FATCA – it started with reporting requirements on US Citizens anywhere in the world. Then it turned to ANYONE in the world the US wants to know about.
Seriously, if they let this go through, how difficult would it be to demand anyone’s information in the world, irregardless of citizenship? After all, they will have the 35% “withholding”, why not just apply it to everyone!!
Mark my words, history has told us a lot. The US has to be the #1 trickiest country in the world. They say one thing and do another. They apply patriotic euphanysms to bills that strangle personal freedoms. They use their army of media goons to write stories that twist and distort facts. The countries that ally with the US will give up their national sovereignty.
Eido: Thanks for sharing your information. I wish I had been allowed to relinquish instead of renounce. In my case, though, the fault is not with the US embassy but with Denmark. Denmark doesn’t allow dual nationality and will only PROMISE to give you citizenship until you’ve actually renounced your original citizenship. I would have liked to save the $450. 🙂
Do you know of other US renunciants in Japan? Is it common?
Yes, I know of other U.S. citizens who have taken Japanese citizenship. But they are rare (and not because the process is hard; Japan is, contrary to rumor, actually one of the easier countries to acquire citizenship relatively speaking). Around 15,000 people naturalize to Japanese every year. Of those, over 90% are of Korean and Chinese nationality (and the many of those were born and lived in Japan their whole life).
I literally know of (through searching on the net) less than two dozen native English (American, British, Canadian) speakers who have adopted Japanese nationality, and I’ve personally met about a half-dozen of these. It’s a small club. 🙂
I also know (and have met) not a few Americans that take Japanese nationality, and do not complete the process and renounce their U.S. citizenship, and hide this from the Japanese government, which is against the Japan nationality law. Their motivations for doing this are complicated; it usually has to do with the desire for multiple residency/suffrage rights or an association/belief in ethnic identity being connected to nationality/citizenship.
I have no idea what they do about their U.S. (or Japanese, for the matter) taxes.
@geeez and Joe Expat?
Yeah, but do they really enforce it? I get the sense it’s just a stupid paper law that no one care about. Kind of like FBAR two decades ago. (Of course, that might mean in 2032, we’ll see Paraguay asking everyone’s banks for information about Paraguayan Persons and hitting them with tens of thousands of dollars of fines for being naturalized Paraguayans living abroad).
Paraguay used to be famous in “Perpetual Traveller” circles for not keeping track of which residents are actually in the country. They didn’t have an income tax, so there wasn’t that much incentive for the govenrment to care. So people were able to get naturalised without living there: they went in, made a bank deposit to qualify for their “inversionista” visa, got their cédula, left, came back once every so often on holiday, and then went for the naturalisation interview. Allegedly the procedure is getting harder but there’s still facilitators who can help you navigate it.
http://www.tdvpassports.com/paraguay.html
Of course, don’t believe everything you read on the Internet. I don’t recommend or disrecommend Dollar Vigilante, it’s just an example where it doesn’t seem to be a total scam. I know a guy in Taiwan who tried to get a Dominican Republic passport for his mainland Chinese wife by a similar route (it’s really hard for mainland Chinese to get spouse visas to settle in Taiwan, and much easier for foreigners), but it didn’t work out.
Another Dominican Republic passport anecdote: Kim Jong-il’s son Kim Jong-nam who lives in Macau was caught once traveling to Japan on what the media kept calling a “fake Dominican Republic passport”. (He said he wanted to go to Disneyland; here’s a Time Magazine article about it).
The thing is, he’d used his “fake passport” successfully to go to Japan before, so I don’t think it was a case of Japanese immigration suddenly noticing something about the quality of the document itself. My theory about what happened is that he had gone to the Dominican Republic using a fake Chinese identity and some sort of shady immigration agent, but then underwent a “real naturalisation” on that fake identity; he got caught not because his passport was fake, but because Japanese immigration figured out he wasn’t really Chinese despite the obviously Chinese name on his DR passport (e.g. they noticed he couldn’t read kanji or something like that).
This is my first post.
Do IBS regulars or visitors have any recent information about renunciation at either the London or Paris US embassies ?
Three members of my family have scheduled renunciation appointments, one in London in mid-June and two in Paris at the end of December (our choice, in order to avoid dual IRS reporting for 2012). We have received all the required forms and understand the process, but we would like to know how each embassy handles the interview. Thanks in advance.
Here briefly is my situation :
• I worked for an international organization in Switzerland for 19 years ; retired in 2010 and now live in France
• All members of my family are dual US/French citizens
• I am current and compliant (as much as that is possible) with US (and French) taxes, including FBARs and FATCA 8938 filed for 2011
• I have no home or other assets in the US
• I am neither rich nor poor ; my « wealth » comes from the monthly payments received from my organization’s pension fund.
My reasons for renunciation are multiple :
• Europe is home for me and the members of my immediate family ; I own a home, pay taxes and vote in France ; none of us has any intention of returning to live in the US ;
• The US, through unfair policies and rules affecting my daily life in France, is forcing me to choose between my two nationalities ; I have therefore decided to voluntarily renounce one of them – my US nationality
• US reporting requirements have become more invasive with each passing year ; rules change constantly, are explained poorly and cause confusion, making compliance difficult and stressful. I resent the IRS enforcement policy of accusations and threats, rather than understanding individual situations.
• Compliance with complex US reporting requirements is costly both in time and money ; few US citizens who have chosen to live outside the US can complete the myriad forms required without « professional » help ; the FEIE no longer applies to me ; the income tax agreement between France and the US does not shield me from double taxation (the infamous « saving clause, » many taxes in France not recognized as such by the US, tax breaks and credits provided in one country not recognized or allowable in the other, etc.)
• Citizenship-based taxation is wrong and unfair. FATCA is wrong and unfair.
In addition to sending me the renunciation forms to fill in, the US embassy in Paris offered the possibility to « add your own statement explaining your decision to renounce US nationality. » Why would it do that ?
I have written my statement, in which I describe the process leading me toward my decision. I am letting it mellow until my December appointment.
But I hesitate between two approaches : reason, which tells me to keep the statement to myself, say as little as possible at the interview, and, if asked, only give the first reason for renunciation (have dual nationality, Europe is home, etc.) ; and principle, telling me that since I believe that the US is making a huge mistake, the State Department should know my reasons. What can they do to me – refuse my CLN ? Can they do more (if I read the State Department Manual chapter on renunciation) ?
I will provide you with full reports of our « experience » following our interviews.
@ Lord Jim
My advice would be to keep the statement simple. Get the CLN in hand and then tell them what you really think. You say you voted in French elections. I’m just thinking that may be grounds for relinquishment rather than renunciation. Others here have more experience with the pros and cons of relinquish and renounce. Anyway you are in full (or as full as possible) tax compliance so it should be smooth sailing for you. Here’s wishing you and your family a quick journey to the freedom of those CLNs.
BTW, loved your book — required reading at my university many long years ago. 😉
@Lord Jim,
Thanks for your information and your questions. I am off to help move my son to a new abode so will look at at this more closely when I get back. We have limited information regarding renunciation in London and nothing for Paris.
Re writing your statement, it is not necessary and may, especially in light of the renewed possible punitive legislation by the US regarding expat renunciations, be a very bad idea. It seems the US can change their laws to suit the occasion — a good reason to get out from under sooner rather than later, in my view.
Congratulations on your family making these decisions you think right for your situation!!!
(I’ll be back later.)
P.S. It doesn’t appear that relinquishment could be an option for you as you are already participating in the US tax system so, I think, they would consider you definitely a US citizen. I made my first mistake by getting back under their thumb by getting my first advice from a cross-border accounting firm rather than an immigration / nationality lawyer. Had I done that, I would not have made the additional mistakes that bind me to the US and the need for my renunciation rather than relinquishment (that it appears I would have easily been able to do given the time and reasons I became a Canadian citizen in 1975).
@Lord Jim,
I wrestled with the same issue regarding my written statement, of which the Consular insisted I prepare.
Should I keep it generic or use it to tell Uncle Sam how I really feel?
So I decided to explain how I feel, but only partially and in a carefully “measured” way, because at that point I had lost all trust in the government and suspected that anything I write in my statement could somehow be used against me in the future.
To my surprise, the majority of time spent during the second renunciation appointment was having the Consular read through my statement line-by-line and attempt to invalidate what I had written in an effort to talk me out of renouncing.
Another interesting point is that my statement is listed on my CLN as an official attachment.
So consider that whatever you write will be on record forever. Therefore, letting it “mellow” for a while is probably a good idea.
Thanks for your helpful comments.
We will all renounce rather than relinquish. Before moving to Switzerland, I actually worked for the US government, traveled on a US diplomatic passport and represented the US at meetings where we negotiated an international treaty ! Luckily any damage to the brain during that period wasn’t permanent.
I suppose I knew beforehand that reason should prevail. At the renunciation interview, I will probably maintain a low profile and keep my thoughts to myself. But it is frustrating to know that the US will exert a certain power over me until the very end (during the renunciation interview, the embassy interviewer will make a judgment on my behavior and write a report….).
Does anyone know a good lawyer who has experience with reliquishing US citizenship?
@Dianne –
Not sure where you are, but one starting point would be looking for an immigration lawyer with experience in dealing with US issues – green cards and so forth. There was an article last year (can’t find it now) on a Toronto immigration law practice which was handling far more (US) renunciation cases than they had in the past.
FWIW, after doing a lot of my own research, I never felt I needed a lawyer at any point in the process – an accountant, yes, but not a lawyer. YMMV.
@Lord Jim –
+1 with what Calgary411 said. You don’t have to make any statement when you renounce, and I don’t see any advantage in doing so. If pressed, you might say something very general about ‘simplifying your life,’ or just that you have made your life in France, have no plans to return to the United States, and it seems like a reasonable step based on that.
I don’t trust the US in future to make a distinction between renouncing to avoid taxes and renouncing to avoid administrative burdens related to taxation, so best to leave the whole subject alone.
On the subject of making a statement as to why you are applying for a CLN, during the interview process:
I agree that for renunciations there is no need to do this, and there are some potential dangers in getting into that discussion.
That is NOT true with relinquishments, however IMO and in the experience of at least two relinquishers I’ve been helping. Particularly if you are reporting a relinquishment some decades ago, but really any relinquishment, there is a certain burden of proof to demonstrate that you willingly committed your expatriating act (e.g., becoming a foreign citizen) with the intent of relinquishing your US citizenship. That pretty-much demands some sort of statement as to why you intended to relinquish, PARTICULARLY in the case of becoming a foreign citizen, given that no longer is automatically deemed to cost you your US citizenship (as it definitely was back in the 1970s and at least early 1980s). Also, you may be asked (as at least one person I know was) for an explanation of why you’re coming forward NOW with a relinquishment request and didn’t do so back then (simple answer, you had no idea there was any need back then, it was assumed to be automatic that you lost your USC, you’d never heard of a CLN — I sure hadn’t until I got mine in the mail one day — but you’ve lived your last X years as a Canadian/whatever and NOT as an American and now realize you need to get the CLN to avoid border hassles and also to ensure that everyone knows what you’ve know and believed for decades, that you are NOT an American — if you’d known back then you had to “apply” for a CLN, you would have at the time, but that was then and this is now, etc).
My advice would be carefully and thoughtfully to draft an affidavit covering these points, review them with someone you trust and maybe even a lawyer, and then get it formally printed and notarized BEFORE your consular interview. Have at least two copies notarized, put one in your safe deposit box, and bring the other to the interview as an attachment to your forms 4079 and 4081 (both of which ask if you want to attach any statement in addition to what’s on those forms). It’s your right to do this, and in a relinquishment case as I describe above I think you would be very foolish not to exercise that right.
But not, as I mention in the outset, if you’re renouncing rather than notifying State of a decades-ago relinquishment. Different story entirely. One size does NOT fit all.
I’m no lawyer, this is not legal advice, and if you’re in doubt, speak with a KNOWLEDGEABLE lawyer on these points. I’d be extremely surprised if you’d be told otherwise than above, and if you were, I’d question whether the lawyer really understands the process.
@Diane For starters, check out Christine Perry at this website
http://www.keelcottrelle.com/directory.php?lawyer=cperry
This is NOT an endorsement, and I have no financial or other connection with her. However she has been quoted extensively as a cross-border immigration and expatriation expert in two Financial Post articles I’ve seen in the past six or seven months and is based in Toronto. I understand she does telephone consultations. As with any lawyer, I would in confidence provide a general outline of your case and ask her for an estimate of the cost of whatever services you want from her or that she might suggest, before proceeding. If you don’t like the price or what you hear, shop around some more. But I do know she’s handled a fair number of relinquish and renounce cases.
There are also some US lawyers you could consult, including one or two who post sometimes on this website. Personally I’d prefer to deal with a cross-border lawyer whose nationality and primary practice is in Canada, but that’s my nationalist preference and maybe not yours.
To find other lawyers for comparison shopping, Google FATCA, FBAR, renounce, relinquish, and look for articles in reputable newspapers that are written by or that quote one or more lawyers on these topics. Read what they say and judge for yourself whether you think they’re worth consulting. That’s exactly how I found out about Perry.
Alternatively, depending on how comfortable you feel with your own lawyer (if you have one) and how well-connected he or she might be, ask your lawyer for a reference or whether someone in your lawyer’s firm works in this area. I’d do that in preference to going through your local Law Society referral service; in my experience those referrals are often only marginally relevant to something as complex and specific as citizenship renunciation/relinquishment. I tried the Law Society approach in my Province once, and I definitely do NOT recommend it, from my own experience.
For anyone living in Sweden, I have just contacted the American Embassy in Stockholm by e-mail in order to schedule my first appointment. In response to my request I received the following form letter (via email):
Dear Sir/Madam:
We want to emphasize that renunciation of U.S. citizenship is a very serious and irrevocable exercise and should therefore only be undertaken after serious consideration of its consequences. Please read more about the procedure and consequences on http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html.
If you are still interested in renouncing your U.S. citizenship after reading this information, you must first visit the embassy for a consultation. Thereafter, if you remain interested, you will be scheduled for an appointment where you formally renounce your U.S. citizenship. If you want to schedule a time for a consultation, please reply to this email with a daytime telephone number.
This confirms what Lisa previously reported concerning her first interaction with the embassy in Stockholm.
I will post more when I have managed to obtain a first appointment. For personal reasons I cannot go to the embassy before the end of July, but I will let you know when I have made any progress.
Thanks to all the other posters who have brought some comfort during these dark times. It is good to know that one is not alone.
@Citizen of Europe,
Thanks for checking in here and reporting your first contact with the US Consulate in Stockholm. I’ll put your information into our database as making your first contact with that Consulate and will look forward to further information from you regarding your experience. It is valuable to all of us to have a picture of what is happening from Consulate to Consulate.
Good luck in your process!! And, thanks again.
@Citizen of Europe
You are not alone. There are 6-7 million more of us out there.
Good luck and God bless.
Anybody know how long the two months waiting period actually is at the Vancouver Consulate? I’m # 5 on the Vancouver Data list and my two months are up. There are 4 before me and no updates, so I’m wondering if I need to insert a laxative into this process.
*@dawid,
Thank you for your question and your information on the Vancouver Consulate delay. I will further look at this as soon as I return from a morning appointment and errand, due to my time constraint right now. Regards.
@dawid I am also waiting for my second appointment at the Vancouver Consulate. About 2 weeks ago I sent them an email saying that it had been two months since my first meeting and I was wondering when my second appointment would be. I received no response. However, a couple of days ago I received a phone call from someone at the consulate who asked a question about one of my documents. I then asked her if she knew when my second meeting would be scheduled. She said she did not know, but that she is preparing material for a supervisor who will contact me regarding my next meeting and then I can make an appointment. So it appears they do know that I exist and are now processing my file for an appointment. A good sign, I think. Hope this helps.
@ladybug:
In the mail today my wife got a letter from the Vancouver consulate telling her to get all her documents together for a “voluntary relinquishment” — then make an appointment by sending in a request via email. In big red letters it says do not make the appointment through the website.
It then lists all the stuff she has to bring — all the same stuff she brought for the first appointment March 15th. In addition, there are four items that begin with “on file” which I assume means they’ve already got it (but they already saw all the other stuff too, and made copies.)
Item #10 on this list says she has to pay a $450 Documentation Fee. Anybody else get that? I thought relinquish was free, and renounce costs money. I guess there’s no get out of jail free card in this process.
Finally, it asks for a pre-paid, self-addressed medium sized letter envelope — a regional Xpresspost letter — with a “signature required” option (an extra $1.50 — how nice).
My wife had sent an enquiring email about two weeks ago on this, and she got no response whatsoever. Tomorrow (Friday) she’ll send the email for an appointment.
At least they haven’t lost it. But I’m steamed about the $450 — I guess they see it as their last chance to pick her pocket before the divorce is final.
DW
@Arrow: relinquishment should only take one visit, and there is no $450 dollar renunciation fee, because you are informing them of a fait accompli. I did a post on over a year ago: http://righteousinvestor.com/2011/02/24/renunciation-of-us-citizenship-on-avoiding-a-consular-or-diplomatic-authority-and-the-new-450-fee/
The State Department website (link in the post) says:
I.e., it makes no sense for them to charge you for informing them in writing of an act you have already commited, making it a fait accompli for which you are not in need of a service from the consulate. So literally speaking, they are planning to rip you off.
I should add that I was not charge the $450; the CLN was sent to me, and I never paid any fee whatsoever.
@petros
I think this is a partial form letter. Although it says “voluntary relinquishment” at the top, the line above all the boilerplate talks about it in terms of “relinquish/renounce.” My recollection, too, is that the consular guy in March said there’d be no fee — so I’m keeping my fingers crossed. Bottom line — $450 ain’t too much to pay to rid yourself of a cancerous tumor.
A lawyer I interviewed last week (who specializes in relinquishments/renunciations) said the Vancouver consulate has been requiring two appointments for all of these for some time now. He thought it might be standard across the board, but conceded he has no idea what other consulates are doing. He’s doing hundreds of these a year, by the way, and his business has picked up nicely. I don’t think you need a lawyer if your application is straightforward — which my wife’s was.*