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1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. It’s a terribly designed form, too. They want the start dates but not end dates of every public-sector job you’ve held (why?)

  7. @Tiger: Agree. Support here is keeping me sane.

    @Broken Man: I think the reason they ask for your start date in public service is because working for a foreign gov may be considered an expatriating act by US. DOS would not need the end date, only the start date.

    Also, in Canada, if anyone has worked for Ontario government (and possibly feds or other provinces–I don’t know the specifics of that). gemployees take an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen when you begin employment. That can also be considered an expatriating act by US DOS. I recently got copies of my Oaths made on two separate dates from old personnel files (one in 1975, another in 1984) which I plan to use as back up evidence to relinquish.

  8. Expatriation Act of 1868 says:

    Sec. 2. And be it further enacted, That all naturalized citizens of the United States, while in foreign states, shall be entitled to, and shall receive from this government, the same protection of persons and property that is accorded to native-born citizens in like situations and circumstances.

  9. @Broken Man: They are referring to a residence in the U.S. If you have kept one after expatriating they will assume you did not have the intent to relinquish.

  10. The form is designed for relinquishing, not renouncing – the things it asks about are really irrelevant for a renunciation.

  11. Further to Blaze’s comments about working for the government of Ontario being an expatriating act:

    8 USC 1481 lists as an expatriating act, if done voluntarily and with intent to relinquish US citizenship, and this is a direct quote:
    “(4)
    (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or

    (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; ”

    All Provincial governments in Canada are a political subdivision of Canada. Arguably, if fact, are also municipal governments in Canada. Moreover, if you become a provinicial or municipal public servant while over 18 and having acquired Canadian citizenship before taking that job, OR have made an oath, affirmation or declaration of allegiance OF ANY SORT (it doesn’t say it has to be to the Queen, or the Governor General, or the Easter Bunny, it says only that there was a requirement for some oath, affirmation or declaration of allegiance. Period. Full stop. End of story.

    So I think a solid legal case exists if, ONCE YOU WERE A CANADIAN AND OVER 18, you took a job as a city trash collector or dog catcher, OR were over 18 and NOT a Canadian but DID have to make an oath, affirmation or declaration of allegiance to the municipality of Moosonee/Moose Jaw/Toronto/whatever, and can swear it was your intent thereby to relinquish US citizenship, and have done none (or very few) of the things they ask about on question 13 on form 4079 by why of “retaining ties” to the US (I don’t think they can argue with having family members in the US whom you visit occasionally and briefly, some of the other stuff like passport, voting or owning property or residing there of course is bad news), then you SHALL thereby lose your nationality, whether or not you tell the US about it at the time. (The ONLY stipulation in 8USC1481 that provides the Secretary of State to proscribe a form or process is that of renunciation, which is SEPARATE from the six other expatriating acts listed including being an employee of a foreign government, never mind a citizen of a foreign government.

  12. For renunciation you use 4080 and 4081 I believe and for relinquishing you use 4079 and 4081. I may be wrong about this.

  13. HI,

    I was born in the USA in 1962. Moved to canada in 1963. Never lived in the USA since. Had 2 driver’s licences and registered 2 cars in the us using my grandmother’s address. Never worked in the us. Never had a bank account. Never filed a USA tax return. Never had a US passport. Have been traveling to the US several times per year for a few days at a time.

    2 questions:

    Do I need to file US tax returns?

    Should I stop visiting the US?

    Thanks very much.

  14. Thanks for the details Schubert. Like you, I was certain I had renounced when I became Canadian in 1973, as per advice of American Consulate. When I signed the Oath of Allegiance to the Queen in 1975 and again when I rejoined Ontario gov in 1984, I did so believing I had already relinquished US citizenship.

    I’m attempting to secure information from my citizenship file as you suggested Schubert. If any of you have ever worked for the federal or provincial governments and you signed an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen, ask for a copy of it from your personnel file. When I asked for mine, I was surprised that I was quickly given a copy from my archived file from 1975, as well as one from my current file. I don’t think this document would suffice on its own to relinquish or renounce, but it is worth including in any information which you submit to DOS.

    Perhaps the most frustrating thing about this is the Ottawa’s US Embassy’s website says “The U.S. government acknowledges that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law…The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person’s allegiance.”

    Hello?!? Isn’t that we have been saying?!? I (and most others!) don’t want to be dual nationals-and U.S. told many of us decades ago we weren’t. Now that they want our money they are singing a different tune–despite what info on their own website says.

    Once I have info from citizenship file, I will apply to renounce. Yet, I have to travel to Toronto at personal expense, inconvenience and health challenges to deal with something I thought was resolved 40 years ago! I will definitely take a print out from the Embassy’s website with me. Here’s a link:

    http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/dual-citizenship.html

  15. Still trying to get straight the sequence of events in relinquishing.
    1) Go to US consulate and tell them I relinquished back in 1967. Fill out necessary forms.
    2) They send information to Washington, who in the fullness of time will isssue a CLN dated back to 1967. This is assuming they agree that I have not in any way claimed US citizenship in the intervening years – which I haven’t.
    3) At the same time, they will inform the IRS that I want out. The IRS will send me Form 8854. I will send it back and politely say “sorry this does not apply to me because my expatriating act occurred before 1994, according to Section 511(g) of Pub. L 104-191, special rule (3), Exception B. ”
    IF the Secretary of the Treasury accepts this, the Exit Tax should not apply, nor should I be required to file back tax returns and FBAR’s. Are we sure that the Section 511 clause has not been wiped out by some other amendment buried in subsequent IRS-speak?
    Does this sequence of events coincide with how others see it?

  17. hijacked2012: That’s how I see the sequence, and my wife will do all this (once we’ve collected the necessary documents) with the expatriation date being 1974. If indeed they issue the CLN, I don’t much care how the IRS sees it. They can apply whatever rules they wan t (and I’m now convinced that they’ll cheerfully make it up if they have to). Bottom line is, they don’t get any money.

    I guess I’ve got my fingers crossed that the worst the IRS can do is ask for tax returns from 1970 to 1974 — which I guess we can dig up if we have to. But I can’t believe there would be any tax owing from those years, given how little she made in that period.

    I’m waiting until I get a couple of supporting documents in the mail before I phone for the appointment — I don’t want them to send us away because of any missing pieces. I’m getting a little nervous that the consulate will be overwhelmed by all these relinquishment requests and the appointment might be months down the road. Likewise, I worry that it will take more months before the CLN shows up. Not much I can do about that, I guess.

  18. @Blaze:

    YOU ARE NOT RENOUNCING you are relinquishing. It’s important to get that very clear in your mind, and not to use the word “renounce” during your interview at the consulate. Along the lines suggested by highjacked2012 just above, which I think needs confirmation by a lawyer … who knows what other surprises are lurking in the legal weeds?

    Further to johnnb’s observation, you want to fill out only forms 4079 and 4081, NOT 4080 and don’t let them convince you to sign 4080 or your CLN will be dated 2012 not 1973 as it should be. Form 4079 is clearly about informing them of prior relinquishment (this is very clear on the final page of the form, read what you’ll be signing at the very end of that form) and Form 4080 is clearly about renouncing TODAY, not informing them of prior relinquishment.

    I’d be tempted, everywhere on form 4079 and 4081 where it says “relinquish/renounce,” to strike through in ink on your copies the word “renounce” and initial the strike-out, just to hammer this point home and to make sure they don’t misunderstand you. Maybe that’s overkill, I don’t know, but it’s your oath you’re swearing, not theirs. However they might balk at having their precious form marked up and ask you to re-complete the form … has anyone had experience with this yet? (Please reply if you have.) Or maybe see if you can find a lawyer you charges by the hour to answer questions and pay for an hour to get answers to specific questions like this one … I know one lawyer in Ottawa who charges $130 an hour for a consultation (not a retainer that’s a LOT more), I’ve heard some charging $350 which I think is ridiculous and I certainly wouldn’t pay more than that for an hour of consultation. (If anyone reading this thread has a complicated situation you may have to pay a couple thou or more, depending on the lawyer and the situation — I’ve heard of one case that was $13,000 for a relinquishment which amazes me but maybe because I don’t know the complexities involved in that case — or maybe the lawyer is a rip-off.)

    See also Johnnb’s excellent earlier post above, about what documentation to bring to the meeting. I’d suggest filling out two copies each of 4079 and 4081 (without signing them, you do that in the meeting) since I believe they’ll want two copies, one for them and one for DC. (Make and keep at home for your reference a 3rd copy, I’ve heard they no longer are giving out copies of the completed and notarized forms for you to take away, since they have a policy directive prohibiting that, someone was told.) Also bring $200 US cash or a certified cheque, they charge $50 each for notarization in US funds, if I’m correct (maybe verify this over the phone with them first) two copies of two forms means four seals means $200 US. They don’t take credit or debit cards and don’t take Canadian money.

  19. johnnb, yes, you seem to be correct about the forms. Here are links to access those forms for anyone who might be interested. This includes a link to the form which is used to certify CLN. You need to click on pdf to access each form.

    DS-4079 Information for Determining Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship pdf
    DS-4080 Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of Nationality of United States pdf
    DS-4081 Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Relinquishment or Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship pdf
    DS-4082 Witnesses’ Attestation Renunciation of Citizenship pdf
    DS-4083 Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States pdf

  20. Billy: It does appear you IRS regulations may apply to you because you were born in US. Before you go rushing into filing, however, please very carefully review information on this website. Maybe Petros or someone else could give you a condensed version of some of our discussions and refer to to various threads which apply to you.

    Welcome to Isaac Brock. You are among friends here.

  21. I did not have to pay any notary fees or any other fees for that matter. The consular official signed the forms and kept them and we left the office.

  22. @schubert: it is not overkill to strike out the word “renounce” leaving the word “relinquish”and to initial; I did so at the suggestion of Mrs. A at the Toronto Consulate. There is also further evidence that the $450 fee is only for those who renounce, as I suggested in a early blog post.

    @hijacked I filled out the necessary forms in advance of going to the Consulate. This streamlines your appointment. Make three copies. If they are nice they will give you a sealed copy. But they’ve been bastards lately. You can read about my experience in Toronto here: http://righteousinvestor.com/2011/04/07/my-april-7-visit-to-the-us-consulate/

  23. @johnnb Thanks for that clarification John.

    I guess that’s what the $450 fee is for, which I gather they want when you come to collect your CLN at the consulate (assuming that’s what you have to do to get it). If as someone else reported it’s $50US for a notarization with them on any document, that could account for about half that fee. Which I guess makes sense from their perspective …

  24. @Petros thanks for that, one more question to strike off the lawyer’s list … If it’s good enuf for Mrs. A then let’s hope it’s good enuf for any of the rest of them.

  25. Toronto insists on DS4079 for renunciations. (why? who knows? who reads these things?) I put everything down, including the summer I spent giving tours of a landlocked tugboat in Toronto (the city owned the museum it was attached to, and it was “an office, post or employment with the government of a foreign state.”) They asked – they can make what they like of the answers.

    BTW Acrobat Pro will let you save your own copy with entries.

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