Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Tiger — we’re operating in a parallel universe here. Our circumstances match yours (citizens in 1974, done nothing remotely American since 1969); only difference is my wife is the American and I’m just a green card holder.
But we just this week completed the transfer of RRSP accounts from RBC to Credential (through the N.S. Credit Union). I’m not 100% sure that Credential won’t ask questions. I am 100% sure that RBC will; and will demand compliance or kick us out.
I’m curious to know if anyone has had any dealings with the Vancouver consulate. Next step after getting some documentation together is to fill out forms, make an appointment, and relinquish. I’m hoping that this will end the nightmare, but I’m prepared to never cross that border again if that’s what it takes.
@ Arrow
It does sound like we are operating in a parallel universe. (I also was thinking N.S. Credit Union).
It sounds like you, too, will be able to show that you relinquished (1974). Yesterday on Johnnb’s post “Visit to Halifax Consulate”, I posted a reference to the U.S. State Department form DS-4083 “Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States”. There is a place on that form to enter the date you performed the expatriating act (In your case 1974, my case 1972). Therefore, although the CLN would be dated as of the date you filed with the Consulate, the expatriating act of 1974 would prove you have not been a U.S. person and therefore would have no obligation to the IRS re tax returns of FBARs.
I hope I am not incorrect here but I truly believe that there is not any Canadian bank who could report me as an American. Particularly since I plan on following through with filing for the CLN once I have all my paperwork in order.
Like you, if necessary I will never cross the border again. It would definitely be difficult if any of my siblings got ill or died. I have already told them they should come here to Vancouver instead. Hopefully they understand.
@rivka88 I will see if I can find the original notes I made when I first spoke to the Consulate. What they want is your US passport (if you have one); your Canadian passport and the certification of citizenship. I even took my original landing paper, which is a real relic! I would call them about the certification as that seems to matter.
@ tiger
I hope I haven’t been unclear. It’s Credential that is the problem because they invest in US sources. And I suppose each credit union will have to be investigated to make sure they have no US interests and are not legally connected to any company, brokerage that does.
And just as a general comment, most institutions here, at least so far, do not seem to be asking. Yet. I had a conversation with a Scotiabank officer and asked him when they were planning to begin dealing with this with customers. He said “when the Canadian government solidifies their position.” And that it would be soon.
For all of us, that CLN is a must.
I must be missing something here regarding relinquishing and obtaining the back dated CLN. How will this help? Form 8854 states:
Date of relinquishment of US citizenship. You are considered to have relinquished your US citizenship on the earliest of the following dates.
2) The date you furnished to the State Department a signed statement of your voluntary relinquishment of US nationality confirming the performance of an expatriating act (provided that the voluntary relinquishment was later confirmed by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality.
Does this not mean that even though, in my case I committed my expatriating act back in 1967, for IRS purposes, my loss of US citizenship will not be effective until 2012 and because I am not tax compliant I will be subject to taxation under Section 877.
@hijacked2012- that is the way that I understand current law operates. There used to be back dating of relinquishment dates but the government felt that, for tax purposes, people were deliberately waiting until the statute of limitations on tax filing had passed before they would notify the DOS of their expatriating act.
I have the same problem with that line. Even if the form has the original “relinquishing Act” date in it, how will that be treated by the average US border guard, and how will the IRS treat it.
What might help is that, as far as I understand, the requirement to formally notify the State Department of your relinquishing act came into force only in the 1990s (correct me if I’m wrong there.)
It strikes me that if you relinquished prior to that date, you’ve got a strong case for insisting that your relinquishment was effective from the date of the “act.”
I’ve said this before — it will take some brave soul getting this issue in front of a US judge before any certainty is possible. And who in his right mind would put themselves in US custody on the off chance that you might be set free in a decade or so when you win the case at the US Supreme Court level.
Can you push a court case in absentia?
Please read this post:
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/16/did-you-relinquish-before-february-6-1995-then-you-did-not-have-to-inform-the-state-department/
@hijacked2012: Yes, there are two dates on the CLN. One is the date you apply for the certificate and one which is the date you performed the expatriating act. The statue you quote about the effective date being the most recent one was put into effect in 1995 with a “transition” year in 1994. So what you say would be true for anyone who performed an expatriating act after 1994. However, since your expatriating act was 1967 this does not apply to you (or me) and you are off the hook.
Two things about the CLN for people like us: We do not have to worry about the tax burden (or at least shouldn’t have to – nobody has tested this yet) and we have a document to show border guards if they insist that we are U.S. citizens and should be traveling on a U.S. passport.
Oops. There is also a third thing: You have something to show your banker to prove you are not a U.S. citizen and information about you does not need to be shared with the IRS in order for your bank to be compliant.
Thanks everyone. I just have the feeling that whatever I do – apply for CLN and hope that the IRS will accept the 1994/95 exception; file back tax returns and FBAR’s and hope that my reason for being 45 years late is acceptable (then go and renounce as fast as my legs will carry me);
or do nothing and let them find me – there is a potential noose waiting out there somewhere.
Another question. Is it true that you need a social security number to file tax returns? If you need to go to the US to get one, and you can’t go to the US without a US passport……..Is it possible to make this any more difficult?
@hijacked Just get your CLN don’t worry about tax returns and FBARs. Your expatriation predates most of the filing requirements.
Again, I say: do not file FBARs. You would be ceding your Constitutional rights and beside, it is not required in your case.
@ hijacked
The IRS website states that Form 8854 is only used by individuals who have expatriated on or after June 04, 2004. You will not need to submit this form.
Would anyone know the answer to this question: For the “continous period” clause in the requirement to transmit US Citizenship to ones children, if for the two years after obtaining 14, one spent two summers out of the country (with grandparents) would this not automatically interupt the “Continuous period” that is required for transmission?
If so, how would one be able to prove this being I am talking about an incident over 15 years ago where I highly doubt there are cross border records of under age travelers esp via land border passings.
(This person spent 12 weeks out of the US during both summers)
I did find a spot online that indicates 6 months or more would make the physical presence not suffice, I just wonder if 3 months each year would qualify as the 6 months they are talking about or if it has to be 6 months continuous. Hard to dertermine all the what-if’s and find what laws are in effect for what time periods….geesh
This is for a friend of mine who would be very grateful if her children are not US Citizens if she can find a way to prove she was in fact out of the US for those time periods, if there is a way she can prove it though.
@inanightmare
That is a really interesting question and I’ve looked at a few US government and US expat websites and I can’t find the answer to your question. I don’t think that it had to be continuous, unless you are referring to the special one year continuous period for US citizen mothers. If you mean that then it looks like it had to literally be without a day outside of the country. The ACA website has a treasure trove of information that you can peruse:
http://www.aca.ch/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=33&Itemid=44
Hope that this helps!
Check the website below or one of may snowbird
website
http://www.snowbird.ca
@tiger
The 8854 has existed since at least 1999. Different Acts have been passed that affected the regulations regarding expatriation tax. The IRS site gives the direction “Expatriation on or before June 3, 2004” not “on or after”….My understanding of this would mean anyone expatriating prior to June 3, 2004 also has to file an 8854.
There are different regulations in place that have to be followed at the time of expatriation; new Acts do not wipe out previous requirements which is why the differentiation of dates is given on the page.
@ Don Pomodoro and rivka88
Thanks for helping….I know, I thought it was interesting too but of course, not a plain and simple answer to read it in text anywhere on a government website. I guess its all in how one reads something, could be taken a number of ways.
@schubert 1975 (your post re “Access” dated Janu. 21, 2012
Schubert, I have been having some difficulty with the “Access” form. Were you able to go to an office in Ottawa or did you have a phone number to call. I have left 2 messages on their (800-667-6703 number) but have not had a call back. I don’t want to send in the forms incomplete. I am not even sure how many of the boxes in Section B need to be checked in order to get a copy of the “signed oath”. Is it sufficient to check “Citizenship/Naturalization” or should I also check/request “In Canada imigration file (Includes FOSS)” and “Citizenship (GCMS)”?
Any assistance with the form would be greatly appreciated. I am also confused where to send the form – there is an address on the bottom of the form in Ottawa but there is also mention on the website of other addresses.
Thanks for any and all assistance.
@tiger
My wife only ticked the Citizenship/naturalization files box under Section B and inserted the number printed on her citizenship certificate for the “file number” in that line. I think that’s all you need. That got her (eventually) copies of everything in her file, by mail, except for one page that was withheld because it contained 3rd-party information, we’re not sure what that was all about but in her case it’s not critical. When the package comes in the mail, the cover letter gives a name and phone number to contact within X days if you have any questions or complaints about what was or wasn’t included in the package. The oaths that you swore and signed will be included, if they’re on file, because those forms don’t have third-party information that could be withheld. Not sure, but we suspect the withheld page may have had something to do with her ex-husband, since they came across together and were on the same landed immigrant card and no copy of that card is included in the package, maybe that’s what they withheld (her ex is named elsewhere on the pages she got, but not his birthdate which I think would have been on the landed card) but this is merely a guess on my part.
Send it to the address in Ottawa printed at the bottom of the page. The files are in Ottawa, not anywhere else, and the files before 1984 are all on microfiche and hence none of the regional offices can access them by computer, they have to be examined physically by an officer in Ottawa, approved for release, and then copied physically from the microfiche projection — which is probably why it took 3.5 months. Sending it to any other address would just result in further delays for processing, for no advantage to you.
The form is very straightforward – just fill in your name and date of birth in Section A (the name as it appears on the citizenship certificate, in case your name has subsequently changed – if there’s been a name change, put that in parentheses in the “given name including aliases” box. Check the access to info box, be sure to include a cheque for the $5 fee (or use a credit card but then you need to print an extra form and send it with the request, see the note on the PDF file), fill out sections C and D, and mail to the address at the bottom.
Don’t bother with the FOSS and immigration files, they won’t have what you need and will only add to the complexity and the delays in getting what you want, which is the evidence that you signed a renunciation oath. FOSS is whatever notes the immigration officer might have recorded when you came into the country and I don’t think has anything to do with your citizenship ceremony.
Please, anyone reading this post — I am NOT a Citizenship and Immigration employee — everything I know about this process is contained in this post, any further questions must be addressed to a departmental employee not to me. This is just what I know about what worked for my wife.
Good luck!
Schubert, you are truly amazing. Thank you so much for all the info. I now feel comfortable sending off my request. And thank you for responding so quickly. It will be so nice to get this checked off my “Important things to do” list and to know that eventually I will get what I need to prove that I did in fact “relinquish” in 1972.
@Tiger, I sent a letter instead of filling out the form. Their website said you can make the request either with the form or by letter. They say the letter should state your request is being made in accordance with Access to Information Act and include details.
I sent a letter providing all of my information—i.e. name, date of birth, date of citizenship ceremony, place of citizenship ceremony,name used at time of citizenship, name used now, specific information requested, etc.
I don’t know if sending a letter will slow down the process, but it was what worked best for me. Here is a link to the information about how to request information. This explains both what to include in letter format, as well as a link to the form.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/requests-atip.asp
Thanks, Blaze. I am definitely going to get this “job” off my desk today.
I am so grateful that I found this site. It is a godsend of information and actually a godsend of comfort in a “terrifying” situation.
I have to say, DS4079 is a pointless nuisance to fill out if you’re renouncing.