Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. @Tiger – thanks, just checking. Thought it might add weight to the fact that I KNEW I was relinquishing.. just looking for anything and everything, if you know what I mean..

  2. That’s true — and one of the many things to strengthen the argument. (Don’t you just hate having to prove your innocence to the US? It goes along with painting us all with the same brush — Tax Evaders, Traitors. Why would they want traitors to remain US citizens? Beats me.)

  3. @Outragec: A friend of mine went to the consulate in Halifax after I did. He became a Canadian citizen in 1967 and did sign the renunciation paper at that time. The consular official told him his case was a “slam dunk.”

  4. @Outragec

    I guess I do see what you mean – you believed you were relinquishing, so it should show ‘intent’.

    @Calgary411
    I agree. It is the idea that I have to “prove” to anyone that I am not an American. And by anyone, I mean both the U.S. as a country or my financial institutions here in Canada.

    @johnnb
    Thank you for mentioning your friend’s date of citizenship. When I was first on IBS, I remember reading your comment re “slam dunk” for your friend. It was also very early days in my own research as I had only just found out that my U.S. status might be in question. I take comfort knowing the “slam dunk” might have been because of that renunciatory oath.

  5. @All, does anyone know if Steven Mopsick ever answered a definite yes or no about whether (in his opinion) the IRS would chase after those who became Canadian (or other) prior to Feb 6, 1994? I’ve been scanning and re-reading, but haven’t found an actual answer?

  6. @outragec
    Stephen Mopsick replied to the 8854 Exit tax question for people who expatriated before Feb. 1994, on Feb. 20 at 8:57 on the Mentality of Mordor thread. He never really replied regarding the obligation to file back tax returns and FBAR’s – or if he did he was very vague.

    I know what you mean about tracking down things you have read on the blog – I have started to keep a notebook with reference dates and times of things I may want to find later. Hope this helps.

  7. @Outragec

    I don’t remember a definite yes or no from Steven re that question. What I do remember quite clearly that he said if individuals who had expatriated back in the 60’s,70,s and 80’s, with no contact with IRS since that time, all of a sudden started to throw a bunch of tax returns at the IRS – they would say ‘ make my day’. I felt his message was quite clear on that – don’t file.

  8. @tiger, @hijacked2012 – thank you. I am compiling arguments in writing for my mother, she likes things in writing. I did actually include several of his comments because I think they will hold value for her, given his ’30 year IRS vet’, even tho they are his opinion. I’d hoped he’d given a definite answer, but I’m not surprised he didn’t.

  9. @outragec: I was the one who asked Steven a few times for a Yes or No answer. I never saw one. Silly me–thinking a lawyer would answer Yes or No to what shoud be a simple Yes or No Question.

    Someone else (mayne Uncle Tell or Watcher maybe, but I’m not certain) also asked something like Why, Why, Why is this so difficult? We never got an answer to that either.

    I wonder if you might find it helpful to consult the Immigation lawyer Calgary 411 consulted to determine if your mother is still US citizen and is still affected by this. IN fact, wouldn’t mind doing a consultation if Calgary is willing to share that info.

  11. @Blaze & Tiger, so do you really think a lawyer would take all 3 of us at the same time? I haven’t yet asked Calgary411 if she’d share the name, but I can’t see why she wouldn’t. I think she’s happy with him… I’d absolutely be willing to do a group meeting if he’d do that, might help defray the cost? (Or would he just charge triple?)

  12. @Tiger and Outragec: I don’t know if he or she would do all three of us at the same time, but our situations are very similar and our questions are almost identical, so it’s worth finding out.

    Outrage, you may have a couple of extra questions–i.e.. how your mother serving on the judicial bench would affect her. My own opinion (personal from what I was told by US Consulate in 1973) and from what Tiger and many others have reported here is that the JP issue may just be a “bonus” for your mother. I think her 1975 date does it for her.The other point is the fact you were a minor when you became a citizen).

    As you know, I tried to see if I could get copies of any records Vancouver Consulate had concerning me from 1973, but they slammed that door and have refused to cooperate.

    I’ve checked DOS Access to Info website. I learned that records over 25 years old are held by National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). Their website says not all records are held forever. I e-mailed them and asked if they would have records of when I relinquished US citizenship by voluntarily becoming a citizen of another country in 1973, correspondence sent to me and a copy of a CLN which may have been issued.

    As I mentioned on another thread, I have images in the back of my mind of receiving a copy of the same letter Mr. Ladybug received, but I’m not certain of that. By the time they would have sent the CLN, I had moved twice, so I would not have received it.

    I sent my e-mail question to NARA on Sunday. They say it may take up to 10 business days for a reply. I would actually feel far more comfortable dealing with NARA than DOS. For one thing, they stress on their website that requests for information are not shared with others

    NARA seems to deal mainly with records of historical importance, but there’s also some indication some personal records may be held here They also have a genealogy area and I wonder if this kind of information would be maintained for that purpose. I will post more information if or when I receive it.

    Outrage, I’m glad you’re making progress with your mother. Tiger and I are still willing to speak with her if it would help.

  13. @Blaze, thanks again. I’d never heard of NARA before this, so it will be interesting to hear what you find out. I, too, think the Justice of the Peace gig would just be a bonus, that the determining factor would be the date. And for me, I’m hoping that since I’ve lived my life as a Canadian only since 1976 is enough, but only a lawyer, I guess, can tell me for sure. And, actually, I forgot, I DO have the name of Calgary411’s lawyer. I wil email Calgary411 off-line and make sure she’s satisfied with him, and if so, then I will call his office and make the query. All they can do is say no, right? certainly no harm in asking.

  14. @Outragec
    You are correct, ‘all they can say is no’. He/She might be willing to do a conference call as Blaze, Somerfgl and myself did with the “Charter/Human rights” lawyer.Will be interested to hear what their office says re a three way consultation. I am certainly willing to pay. I have been trying to get the name/contact info re a good immigration lawyer here, but have not had any luck as yet.

    @Blaze,

    I would be very interested in the email address re NARA. Like outragec, I had never heard of them. Clever of you to think of them and pursue it. Very interested to hear any response. I agree with you better to contact them rather than DOS

  15. @outrage, tiger: Here is a link to NARA’s website. I used their Ask a Question sheet under Contact us for my question about whether they would have any records regarding the relinquishment of my US citizenship in 1973.

    I submitted this question under non-military records. I did a general search on Certificate of Loss of Nationality, but nothing was found, so I may just be grasping at thin air, but it’s worth a try. I

  19. @Blaze & Tiger, okay, I was having difficulty commenting. Turns out I had to login to WordPress.com and now I can comment. Not sure what’s going on there. At any rate – two updates.
    Thanks to you two, and Calgary411 and OMG for giving me the boost I needed to convince my mother not to file. And I DID it. I created a compilation of stories and excerpts from the various statutes, and comments from Steve Mopsick, and she accepted it. She is telling her accountant not to file. So THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. I’m hoping her health also improves now that the stress is relieved.
    2nd update- I have the name & contact info for Calgary411’s immigration lawyer and will try to get through today. I also found a site, hosted by the Law Society of Alberta which offers 3 lawyer referrals based upon what your issues is. I didn’t have any luck yesterday, but thought I’d keep trying (automated message, try again in 30 minutes) as Calgary411 mentioned that she thought that lawyer was pretty busy. The link is:
    http://www.lawsociety.ab.ca/public/lawyer_referral.aspx

  21. GAK – okay, it’s NOT just for Alberta, read it a bit better,
    1-800-661-1095
    (Toll Free number valid only in:
    Alberta, Saskatchewan, Lower Mainland British Columbia, Yukon, NWT, and Nunavut)

  22. @Outragec, you’ve made incredible progress in such a short time, congratulations.

    I have to admit I started to have heart palpitations when you first posted about your mother all ready to file US tax returns. I’m so relieved.

  23. @OMG, thanks, me too! I talked to her last night, and she is too, so that is a relief to me & my siblings. She admitted she has been living under huge stress with this (which she refused to talk about before), and that she felt a huge weight had been lifted. So I have hopes her health will improve a bit now. We all know how mental stress just adds to the physical.

  24. @Outragec

    I am so happy that you have convinced your mom to not file. I am sure that is the correct thing for her.
    I also have possible leads on a couple of lawyers here in Vancouver. They have been recommended by a friend; although, she has no experience with them. I am waiting to hear from a friend of my son (who is himself a lawyer) , if he is familiar with any of the lawyers.
    I found an interesting website last night – it is http://www.accidentaluscitizen.com/articles/. There is information on that site (particularly the first two sections of the article) that I believe pertain to all of our circumstances (including your mom’s situation). Have a look at the article. Make particular note of the example on page 3 of the article regarding “seeking formal recognition of the former relinquishing act,’ and “NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY PENALTY UNDER NEW U.S. TAX INITIATIVES.” In the example given in the article, the person expatriated on July 4, 1985 and does not notify the DOS until 2012.

  25. @Tiger, Hm.. that is interesting, but a couple of things bothered me. The article again refers to ‘simply getting themselves into compliance’, as if that was done a) easily and b) at little cost. And it would have been nice if there had been any reference to the US cannot claw back citizens who relinquished pre-1986. It’s kind of implicit, I guess. Still this is a much better article than just about any other I’ve read. I’m certainly going to bookmark it and follow it. thank you!

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