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1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. @Lovecheese – TOO FUNNY! William Wallace é? Of course they took your $450. They are greedy US 3rd World Government!!!

    I say this because I live in the 3rd world and I pay a lot of fees like everyone else here. The US has turned into a specie of 3rd world since Obama was elected. I’m not political. I have never voted in life, but remember, the renunciation fee was implemented under Obama.

    Congratulations.. I’ll be with you very soon.

  2. I am just glad I brought my credit card in with me as I didnt bring anything in with me but my documents and at last minute had the gut wrenching feeling and thought…hmm…”what if”..and sure enough! I woulda been screwed! They should warn people of that.

    The others who have renounced…didnt they indicate once you recieve the CLN then you would be charged 450, either on pick up or before they send it? I’m just glad to be done with it, but still its frustrating how things change and the process….now they better approve me and send it to me!

  5. A few months back, my wife came home and said “We have to pay for the education of a teenager.” I said why? She said “Because the judge said so!!”

    No kidding, a Federally appointed judge here was soliciting business owners to sponsor lower-income kids. My wife got picked to sponsor, and of course she wanted to help. I finally met the young girl just today. Forget “Feed the Kids” – I’m paying about USD **$200/month**. The girl has promise. I’m most likely on the hook for this $200 for 7-8 more years, but no problem. I don’t mind it because the part that this young girl receives money that was made in this country.

    The judge and his team are doing a great job of keeping track of worthy kids. I told my wife they can send two more next year that I will sponsor.

    Do you think that the IRS would give me a tax deduction for helping to educate lower-income Brazilian kids? 🙂 Ha! I doubt it.

    After the US has treated me this way, the last thing I want to do is tell these kids I’m American!!! Now I have to think of a creative birthplace. Oh yes, I’m CANADIAN! 🙂

  6. @Lovecheese,

    Sincere congratulations!!!!!!

    Were you able to renounce in one appointment, with your $450 fee?

    The policy changed sometime in early February. I can recall a post or comment regarding this back a ways.

    Recalcitrant’s renunciation (one appointment) in Calgary was February 1st and the next one I heard of in Calgary was, again, one appointment but the $450 “collect the fee up front” was in effect, but at least now you come away with a descriptive receipt of what the $450 fee paid was for (compared to coming away with nothing in hand, at least in Calgary, prior to that.

    I was wondering if along with that change, there is also a change of only one renunciation meeting required, rather than two — unless a person really, really needed to be sent for a time out to think about it.

    I’m so happy for you!!

  7. @Calgary 411-

    Yes, it was one appointment thank goodness. I can’t imagine having to fly back for another one as the cost of me to travel was 1000+, thats why I picked Calgary. As far as I know, its the only location in Canada that you can renounce in one appt?

    By the way, your city is beautiful, I really enjoyed the 2 days I had there! Stephens Ave walkway shops took some of my money as well, lol!

  8. Yes, my receipt at least has my name, date and renounciation written on it too….least its some proof

    Thanks Calgary 411 🙂

    A huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders.

  9. You came at a good time. Glad you liked Calgary and hope with all the extra money for transportation that you had to spend to get to a US Consulate, it was a mini-vacation for you. ‘Taint fair, any of it.

  12. @geeez,

    Go for it — I’m doubt any of the Canadians on this site will have any problem with you as our adopted cousin.

  15. When I renounced in early february in Halifax, I was sent the forms before my appointment. I had to send them back with all needed documents so that it could be done in one appointment. I was told that the fee was to be paid upfront. There was no conversation about why I was renouncing. I also had added a letter as to why I wanted to renouce. I had to provide a postage paid envelope so that they could send my CLN when it came in if I didn’t it being folded L.O.L. I to felt so happy that I was CANADIAN only when I left there. I had a smile all the way home. And it still brings a smile and comfort every time I think about it. My only regret is that I didn’t know about this years ago as I would of done it long ago.

  17. @Babbs at 5:12 am above, and to anyone relinquishing on the basis of pre-1986 expatriating acts:

    Babbs said “My only regret is that I didn’t know about this years ago as I would of done it long ago.”

    Before 1986 the US law was if you became a foreign citizen, took a job in a foreign government, or served in another country’s armed forces, you would lose your US citizenship. In 1986 they added the qualifiers “voluntarily and with intent to relinquish” to the expatriating acts, but before 1986 that wasn’t there. Before 1986, you lost your USC automatically unless you could argue your way out of it; the presumption was you wanted and intended relinquishment. (This has been raised in earlier posts and other threads on this site.)

    Nowhere even in the current wording of the Act, except for the obvious and almost trivial (in this context) case of renunciation, does it say you have to inform State of your action in order to lose your nationality. You have to inform them to get a CLN, but that CLN is back-dated to the date of the expatriating act (assuming that you can demonstate or swear to volition and intent to relinquish and that you’ve done nothing since then to negate that relinquishment).

    If I had a loonie for every former USC who became Canadian before 1986 for who has said to me those words Babbs said, well, maybe I wouldn’t be rich, but I could buy myself and my wife a very nice meal somewhere.

    Another Schubert tip — if you’re going to be filing for relinquishment based on a decades-old expatriating act, swear an affidavit explaining what you did and why, and include some variation of Babbs’ wording in the affidavit. EVERYONE I know who became Canadian back in the 1960s-1980s knew, believed and wanted that would mean a loss of US citizenship. And NO ONE had any idea there was any need to tell the US what they’d done (general assumption was the US knew or would find out anyway, and we have stories from Blaze and Ladybug among others that confirm this in spades). And EVERYONE would have bloody well filed their bloody forms back then, if they’d known what they were, that they were necessary (they WEREN’T back then), and why years later they’d be important (none of us had crystal balls back then).

    I think this is an important statement to make, under oath, if you’re applying for a CLN based on past relinquishment. It’s of course irrelevant for renunciation. This is yet one more little example of how the two processes are quite different and need to be thought about and approached a bit differently.

  18. @ shurbert my situation was that I was born in the U.S. to canadian parents dual from birth and brought back to Canada when I was a child in the late 60s. I know many people with the same circumstances as my own. My family went back in the early 80s and are still there. I went to the U.S. in 1986 and well it wasn’t Canada so I came back ten months later and have been here ever since. I’ve never even had a U.S. passport. I do have a SNN. So now I wait for CLN and file 2011 and the other papers they want and spend more money to just be done with them and then I will go visit. If I didn’t have family there I would of handled some things differently.

  20. @saddened123

    Here’s one explanation of the Exit Tax which applies if you meet the test for being determined a “covered expatriate”.

    http://www.irs.gov/irb/2009-45_IRB/ar10.html

    Covered Expatriates and Exit Tax Threshold

    The Heroes Earnings Assistance and Relief Tax Act of 2008 (the HEART Act) and the U.S. Treasury Notice 2009-85 establish the following rules for US expatriates.

    The law applies to US citizens who expatriate, as well as long-term US permanent residents who give up their green cards, which they have held for 8 of the last 15 years. Both categories are subject to immediate “exit tax” on unrealized gains on all their assets in the US and worldwide, including grantor trusts, as well as on any future gifts or bequests to US citizens and residents, if any.

    You qualify for the covered expatriate and the related exit tax, if you meet any of the following criteria:

    • you have a net worth of US$ 2 million or more;

    • you have an average net U.S. income tax liability of greater than US$ 139,000 (thereafter indexed for inflation; $145,000 for people expatriating in 2009) for the five year period prior to expatriation; or

    • you fail to certify that you have complied with all U.S. federal tax obligations for the preceding five years.
    Herewith, all property subject to gift tax and all property, where you hold a use right, are included for purposes of the net worth test.

    The exceptions are dual nationals from birth, who have not lived in the US for more than 10 years from the last 15, and persons younger than 18½ who have not lived in the US for more than 10 years.

  21. I think that renunciation must be more widespread in Europe than I thought and not just contained really to London and Bern, because I was just told by the embassy to give them my number and that they will contact me when the next appointment opens up, most likely in June or July. I had no idea that there was going to be such a long wait list in a tiny country like mine (Belgium)! They will do it the traditional two visit way it seems as well…Good thing I’m not in a huge hurry I guess!

  24. @Everyone/anyone,
    Does anyone know if it adds any weight to the ‘I relinquished decades ago’ argument that Canada did essentially not allow dual citizenship prior to February 14, 1977?
    “Although Canada restricted dual citizenship between 1947 and 1977”.
    “The 1977 Act also provided that Canadians could hold dual citizenship, reversing the previous situation in which Canadian citizenship was lost upon the acquisition of the citizenship of another country. “

  25. @Outragec

    This is a guess on my part, but I don’t think it would add any weight because the U.S. would/could just say “well that is a Canadain law”. For those of us who took out Canadian citizenship, pre April 1973, there was a “renunciatory oath” in addition to the “oath of allegiance”. I think that swearing/signing of an oath does add weight.
    For me the “big thing” adding weight to ‘relinqishing decades ago’, is the 1986 amendment to the American INA, whereby according to their own act, the burden of proof re INTENT to relinquish, rested on the shoulders of the State Department. It was assumed that the expatriating act resulted in ‘relinquishment’. As long as nothing was done afterwards (ie voting, U.S. passport etc) to negate that relinquishment, then the individual relinquished U.S. citizenship.

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