Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. recalcitrantexpat & Petros – It’s not just to the IRS …

    For CLN interagency reporting requirements try (1) U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS); (2) Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI); (3) Internal Revenue Service (IRS). And in some cases (4) Secret Service!

    The drill by the book for what happens with a CLN is spelled out in –

    7 FAM 1240 – INTER-AGENCY COORDINATION AND REPORTING REQUIREMENTS

    – linked to at http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/07fam/c22713.htm

  3. @usxcanada- thank you for that additional information. I find it interesting to see that it seems to be only 877(A) renunciats whose names are published.

  4. @KalC

    I did the following to apply for my citizenship file. I sent a letter to:
    Director
    Access to Information and Privacy Coordinator
    360 Laurier Avenue West, Office NAR B1036
    Ottawa, On
    K1A 1L1
    If you apply under the Privacy Act for a file which is your own, there is no charge.
    To the request, I attached a photocopy of the transmission copy of my citizenship document. It contained the Citizenship Certificate No., my name, File No. and the date the document was stamped. I also told them the citizenship ceremony took place in the Toronto area.
    I believe there is another procedure for applying for your actual citizenship certificate.

  5. @Jay what has not been mentioned and does come into play, if you have concerns, is the time factor. Let’s say you renounce this month. Then you file your five years – 2007-2011 by the June 2012 extension deadline (since you won’t owe any taxes). You won’t have a CLN by then but you also will not have to file your final 1040 and the 8854 until April/June 2013. You essentially have a year for the IRS to see you owe nothing and presumably, you choose to file your FUBARs. Since it is only on the 8854 where one must indicate they have filed the five years and blah, blah, I don’t see any reason to worry about renouncing first; i.e., the IRS can’t do anything to you and if you are not yet on their radar…..and should they decide to slam you with FUBAR penalties, it won’t matter at all when you did what……….hope that makes sense! 🙂

    I had planned to renounce first (because I was totally paranoid about FUBAR fines ) and would have gone thru the 2nd appt before filing but decided I needed to spend more time making sure I really understood and wasn’t “overreacting.” I filed in mid-December and renounced in mid-January. What a relief!

  7. @nobledreamer
    I wasn’t able to open your link for some reason. But that would be great news if place of birth was not transmitted to the U.S border patrol. I had a friend, here in BC, who was born in South Africa. At her EDL interview she had her Canadian citizenship document and was asked where she was born. She had to spell the name of the town in South Africa and it was typed into the record. So I had assumed that info would be passed on, perhaps in the chip or strip on the card.

  9. @nobledreamer: Thank you for your inputs. I believe, I don’t owe any taxes to USA after 1116 exemptions. But first renounce to stop the clock for IRS. Then take an extension to prepare for 6 years. I have been hearing roomers that IRS is working to simplify taxes for dual citizens. They supposed to release simpler guidelines last month, but got delayed. I am very busy with my office work and hard to find an accounted in my country who can file taxes in IRS. I wish I have more time to avoid making an unintentional mistake. Taxes are simple, because I pay taxes in my country. Each income source sends me and to tax department summary of income and amount of tax deducted. I can use that to file taxes. But my family has so many accounts and hard to track various transactions between family members for filing FBAR.

  10. I have received a packet of stuff for renunciation from the local consulate. Included in it is the form 4079, which asks a bunch of questions that seem more related to relinquishing than to renouncing. Including this one:
    “Have you registered your children as citizens of the US?”

    I would like to know if everyone who renounces has to complete that form. And, if so, and the answer is yes, would they then go on to ask for information about your child? or do they just let it go at that?

  11. @CanuckDoc

    I can’t tell you the number of times that I have looked at form 4079, as I am considering notifying the consulate of my previous (1971) expatriating act which results in “relinquishment. Until your post, I had not noticed that question re children. It is a rather “scary” question whether the answer is “yes” or “no”. If the answer is “no”, that is one way for the U.S. to catch the “accidental american” who might otherwise stay undetected. If the question is “yes”, my guess is there would not be any more information requested re your child as if they are registered as U.S. citizens, they already have as much info as they need.

    I went to the State Department website and was surprised to find that form 4079 is used both for relinquishment and renouncing. I believe there is another form 4080 that is only used for renouncing. I agree the questions do seem to relate more to relinquishing.

  12. @CanuckDoc

    The form 4079 is about you, and if you acted in a way to affirm US citizenship, your children will not be affected.

    Everyone who renounces has to fill out this form.

  14. @Rivka88 and others

    My children were registered 20 years ago. There is a paper document on them somewhere, but it seems unlikely someone has entered all those paper documents from many years ago into the computer system.

    It is hard to imagine they would not take the opportunity to find out more information that is offered by the answer to the question. It sounds like they have already started in some places at least.

  15. @tiger
    I relinquished in Toronto in December and the consulate had me fill out form 4080 as well as 4079. They did say that if for some reason my relinquishment is denied, then I could renounce.

  16. Is there an advantage to relinquishing as opposed to renouncing besides not having to pay the 450 dollar fee? I am just asking because I see that it seems to be the preferred method of those on the board to cancel their US citizenship. I was going to renounce due to the likelihood that it could not be challenged, but am I missing something important?

  17. @ various above
    First of all, I wouldn’t suggest filling out 4080 if you intend to relinquish and are filling out 4079. How can you possible renounce (which is what you do with 4080) something you don’t believe and are arguing you don’t have (which is what 4079 is for)? Legally you may be undercutting your relinquishment case. If for some reason they deny relinquishment, you can always renounce later. Check with a lawyer about this if you wish, but I have discussed this with a good lawyer and this is my understanding of what I heard. But my saying this is NOT legal advice, if you’re in doubt, get your own legal advice.

    On the subject of whether 4079 is needed for renunciation, no it is NOT. State Department’s own foreign affairs manual clearly states in the chapters for consular officers; someone renouncing does NOT legally need to answer any of those questions on 4079, they just need to swear to forms 4080 and 4081). For example, go to the bottom of page 4 on this document
    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/109065.pdf and read what it says about what 4079 is used for. It’s used to establish or document or substantiate intent to relinquish; there is no possible question of intent to relinquish if you march into a consulate or embassy with Form 4080 in your hot little hand and swear to it in front of a consular officer, so no need or relevance for 4079. And any consular officer who tries to tell you otherwise is so full of BS his or her eyes are turnng brown.

    I know a number of women who are nervous about that question on 4079 re registration of kids as Americans, something many people did EVEN IF THEY DIDN’T WANT THEIR KIDS TO BE AMERICAN. back in the 1970s because at that time it was the child’s choice, the child under US law at that time had to establish residence in the US before age 25 in order for their US nationality to be “activated” otherwise they lost it. That has changed subsequently, maybe under a Supreme Court decision I’m not sure, but no one could have known that in the 1970s. So why is this important? Because a) if you renounce, there is no need to complete form 4079 though it’s possible some officers in Canada may (contrary to their own departmental policy) try to bully you into doing that, and b) the only relevance of any of those questions on 4079 to a claim to relinquishment is relative to what you did AFTER committing your potentially expatriating act, which might invalidate your relinquishment if you attempted to exercise US citizenship rights after e.g. becoming a Canadian. And registering a kid as a USC with an embassy definitely is exercising a US citizenship right. But, what you did or didn’t do BEFORE committing your expatriating act is IRRELEVANT to any determination of you intent X months or years later when you committed your act, and can’t possibly invalidate your relinquishment. To take another example, applying for a US passport after your relinquishment is a very big No-No; so what if you applied for a US passport three or five years before your relinquishment? That was then, you changed your mind for whatever reason three or five years later, and you relinquished. Ditto residing in the US; anyone born in the US by definition resided there at one time, but residence in the US is only relevant on 4079 if it occurred AFTER your relinquishment, not before. Ditto registering a child at the embassy or consulate …

    I am 99% confident that if you consult a cross-border immigration lawyer who is honest and knows the law, this is what you’ll hear. But I’m not a lawyer and you should NOT take my word for this, in case I’m wrong or misheard what I think I heard.

    There is a lot of misinformation and misinterpretation floating around about these issues, and some of that may be caused by some US officials unwittingly or maybe wittingly saying things that aren’t quite (or at all) true. Yes lawyers can be a bit expensive, but if you go in prepared with a list of specific questions the consultation doesn’t have to cost an arm and a leg. Consulting with a lawyer is a lot cheaper in the long run than not consulting and making a decision or taking an action that can turn out to be very expensive financially or emotionally. I’m not a huge fan of lawyers in general, but there are times when you really need to check with one before jumping into deep water, and this is one of those times IMO.

    If you’re concerned about having registered a child as an American before you yourself relinquished your own citizenship, or are baffled by whether you should renounce or relinquish, I suggest you read everything I’ve said above carefully, and then CONSULT WITH A LAWYER and discuss these points with him/her and on how/whether/when you should or should not proceed.

  18. @Don, well, there is the not-so-clear idea of whether receiving a back-dated document exempts one from the 5 years of taxes, etc. I have become confused about that and can’t offer any info.

    Many here actually have a situation that allows them to relinquish. That may be why it is seen as the “preferred method.” The many folks who came in the ’70’s and 80’s were sure they had already dumped their USC. And Petros, having just received CDN citizenship a month or two before he relinquished, was smart enough to tell the Consulate he intended to lose it and they realized he was eligible for it.

    But I think some Accidental Americans would not be able to do it nor would some like me, who were dual, used the US passport, voted, etc.

  19. Well…..I am Renounced!!!!!!!!!!! I had my appt and I cannot begin to describe the feeling of relief after leaving that embassy!
    I encourage everyone who has not done so, to do it!!

    The consular was very polite and professional, they did try to talk me out of it and explained every “possibility” that could happen in my life that I would want to keep my US Citizenship, but I stood my ground and proceeded. It went very smoothly… although, I was suprised as they took my 450.00 at my appt.

    He did ask if I had children, I told him yes. I described my circumstances and why in fact they are not US Citizens as per the DOS websites and qualifications. He confirmed I was probably right but said the kids later in life COULD try and fill out an application and the DOS would make that determination, not a lawyer as I consulted.

    The keyword is COULD…

    I am so happy to be 100% CANADIAN GAL now!!!

    I felt like shouting as I walked out FREEDOM, like William Wallace from Braveheart, lol!!!!

  20. @Tiger not sure why the link didn’t work but here is info copied/pasted (minus the French) which indicates what info is shared with whom. My only concern at the time I applied was that my place of birth not be revealed to US Border Customs Patrol. The only section that mentions “Place of birth” is the exchange between MTO and ORG, only Canadian entities.

    Some may be uncomfortable with the info at the end (how the info is used by each agency) which includes the rider “any purpose authorized by law” and in one case, “any purpose authorized by US law.” Clearly, we can assume that changes can/will be made that are not being addressed….I don’t know if that means they have something in mind but I imagine some will find that suspect.

    I have no way of knowing how strictly these exchanges are made and whether or not we can trust them. But I have no reason/experience to suspect the CDNs of not following what is indicated.

    The following Ontario driver’s License information will be collected during the EDL application process:

    Collection of Driver’s License Related Information

    • Full name
    • Height
    • Address
    • Date of birth
    • Gender
    • Digital image (photograph)
    • Signature

    Disclosure by MTO to the Office of the Registrar General (ORG) and applicable vital statistics agency

    Your Ontario birth certificate information may be disclosed to the ORG for the purpose of verifying the authenticity of your birth certificate. Birth certificates from other Canadian provinces may be verified with the appropriate provincial vital statistics agency.

    The following information may be disclosed:

    • Full name
    • Date of birth
    • Gender
    • Place of birth
    • Certificate number
    • Registration number
    • Certificate issuance date

    Disclosure by MTO to Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC)
    MTO will disclose the following personal information to Citizenship and Immigration Canada• Full name / Nom complete
    • Other known names
    • Date of birth
    • Gender • Driver’s License Number
    • Copy of the EDL Citizenship Questionnaire
    • Copy of the EDL Personal Information Consent
    • Interview location
    • Date of application
    • EDL application result
    • Copies of all citizenship and supporting documents

    Disclosure by MTO to the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA)
    MTO will disclose the following personal information of approved EDL applicants to the CBSA:
    • Full name
    • Date of birth
    • Gender
    • Citizenship
    • License issuing province
    • License issuing country
    • License Issue date
    • License expiration date
    • License status and status changes
    • Serial Number (DCN)
    • Photograph
    • Radio frequency identification (RFID) tag identifier
    • Tag Identification Number (TID)
    • Optical character recognition (OCR) unique identifier

    Disclosure by CBSA to United States Customs and Border Protection (USCBP)

    The CBSA will act as an intermediary between the MTO and USCBP by forwarding EDL information it receives
    from the MTO to USCBP

    • Full name
    • Date of birth
    • Gender
    • Citizenship
    • License issuing province
    • License issuing country
    • License expiration date
    • License status and data changes
    • License status and status changes
    • Photograph
    • Radio frequency identification (RFID) unique identifier
    • Tag Identification Number (TID)
    • Optical character recognition (OCR) unique identifier

    Your personal EDL information will be used by the MTO for the following purposes:

    • Processing your EDL application, including verification of birth certificate information, citizenship and EDL entitlement

    • Issuing you an EDL

    • Ongoing administration and evaluation of the EDL Program

    Your personal EDL information will be used by CIC for the following purposes:

    • Conducting quality assurance on the citizenship verification elements of your EDL application

    • Evaluation of the EDL program

    • Any other purpose authorized by law

    Your personal EDL information will be used by the CBSA for the following purposes:

    • Evaluation of the EDL program by CBSA and the Government of Ontario

    • Administration and enforcement of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act

    • Any other purpose authorized by law

    Your personal EDL information will be used by the USCBP for the following purposes:

    • Determination of your eligibility to enter or remain in the United States

    • Any other purpose authorized by United States law

    If you choose to revoke the consent you have provided in this form, you will no longer be eligible to hold an EDLand it will be cancelled and replaced by a non-enhanced driver’s licence.

    However, if you revoke your consent, the personal EDL information collected as part of your application will
    remain part of your driver’s licence record. In addition, once your personal EDL information has been disclosed
    to the CBSA and CIC, it will be retained for such period as is required under the federal Privacy Act and Library
    and Archives Act. The revocation of your consent may not affect the continuing use, storage and disclosure of
    such information by the USCBP in connection with your EDL.

    Your EDL will contain a Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) chip. RFID is a wireless technology that helps U.S.
    border officials to quickly identify an EDL holder and confirm that the EDL being presented is legitimate. The RFID chip embedded in the EDL contains a number, unique to the EDL that the U.S. will send to the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) to retrieve the EDL holder’s personal EDL information listed above. While the RFID chip does not contain any personal identifying information, it is being provided with a sleeve for added protection of the unique number. The RFID chip also contains a unique Tag ID number which is used to prevent the cloning of the EDL.

    The consent you provide by signing this form in no way restricts or affects the collection, use, storage and disclosure of your personal information by the MTO as authorized under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act and other applicable legislation.

  21. and not to leave out, of course, that if you revoke your consent there is no assurance that the US will dispose of it.

  22. @Lovecheese
    Great! Super!! Congratulations!!! And welcome to the club 🙂

    Yesterday was 7 weeks for me and I am do not regret it one bit. It is very freeing, eh?

  23. @Jay

    We had expected the Dec 7 2011 info statement from the IRS would clarify/confirm new guidelines. Unfortunately, it was mostly a re-statement of policies already in place and many people became more confused about what constituted “reasonable cause.”

    The only other hing I have seen regarding issuing simpler guidelines is this:

    “On March 2 at the 36th annual Tax Law conference held by the US Federal Bar Association, IRS Chief Counsel William Wilkins said the IRS is “actively studying options for a different kind of kind of disclosure path for citizens residing abroad who do not have material US tax obligations.” This is the first time an IRS official has proposed something new on the record.”

    Sorry no one here seems to have actually renounced first and then filed; I think each person has to evaluate his/her own situation in that regard. Perhaps there are others who have done it but are just not contributing here.

  24. @ Lovecheese, Congratulations

    @ Nobledreamer, Thank you so much for all of that info re the EDL. I am sure that BC’s must be the same. I think I will go that route.

    @ Schubert, You may not be a lawyer, but as I have said before you are a wealth of information. And you explain things so clearly. I am sure there are many of us on this site, who have become so much more informed because of your efforts. Thank you, thank you.

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