Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Calgary411: I just posted some quotes of Winston Churchill on the Blimey! thread. This one is better for here:
“If you have ten thousand regulations, you destroy all respect for the law.”
I don’t think even Sir Winston could have foreseen 72,000 pages of IRS regulations!
@Blaze re excellent Churchill quote:
My wife and I had very little respect for the current US government nor the country’s system of government (as it has evolved and warped away from the constitution) before this started. Now we have none at all. Nor do any of our friends in Canada or the US, nor our family members in both countries, who have become aware of these outrages.
No doubt those in the US administration and Congress who are behind all this are only concerned with extorting money from people who don’t owe it, by any sane stretch of imagination. But the damage this is doing to what little remains of the US reputation outside its own borders, and even among its own citizens within its borders, is corrosive and will in the long term do incalculable economic as well as political damage to the US and its system of what passes for government. I say incalculable, because blinkered bureaucrats, media writers and politicians who don’t even know or care to look at the damage have no way of measuring it.
Without respect there is no prospect for consent. “…Governments are instituted among men (sic), deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” Remember the source of that quote, America? (It’s the same source that mentions “taxation without representation,” something overseas Americans have suffered from for some decades now.)
@schubert1975- even if the U.S. were to offer us some kind of quasi representation the truth is that the imposition of U.S. law upon people who reside in other lands would still have the effect of making us second class citizens. There is no effective U.S. legislation that would be of any benefit to a non resident citizen.
If there is a U.S. citizen who thinks otherwise then that citizen, who believes in the beneficence of U.S. law, should live in the U.S.
It should not also be forgotten that U.S. law makes no linkage between the exercise of voting rights and the filing of tax returns. All efforts that are being made to change the nature of the argument must be resisted.
Representation for expats is Constitutionally impossible.
@KalC and Calgary 411
Hello!!! Can someone clarify if in fact defined benefit pensions are reportable on FBAr and the 8854? I am so confused!!!! I claimed the FBAR for my defined benefit pension although, some say that I should not have?
@Lovecheese
Boy, oh boy, I’m the wrong person to ask and I don’t want to further confuse anyone. I have retained a US tax lawyer and one of the things I will do with his help is my Net Worth Statement for the 8854, but we’re not there yet. I won’t know for some time what’s what for me.
Here is some information on what I think — but I should likely not even include it:
I think no, you don’t put your defined benefit pension on your FBAR. (see below*). (I didn’t so, who knows, maybe I’m in even more non-compliance trouble.)
* http://www.expattaxandlaw.com/Foreign_Pensions_FAQ.html
Do I have to file an FBAR (TD F 90-22.1) form for a foreign retirement plan?
Yes, you have to file an FBAR if the retirement scheme is a personal or individual account plan.
You would not have to file if the plan was an employer administered plan or a traditional defined benefit plan. The latest instructions to the FBAR form are silent on this point but the IRS has indicated in discussions with tax professionals that foreign personal pensions should be reported.
Who Must Report a Plan’s Foreign Accounts?
http://www.truckerhuss.com/articles/view_article.cgi?class=articles&article=_pension_benefits/20100401_Proposed_Regs_Foreign_Reporting.txt
Because many different parties may be involved with an employee benefit plan’s investments, the broad language of the Instructions and proposed regulations could require a number of identical FBARs to be filed with respect to a single plan account. Some of these FBARs will report a “financial interest” in plan accounts, while others will report “signature or other authority” over them. A plan investment in a foreign financial account may trigger an FBAR filing by:
The plan trust
The plan sponsor
Members of a plan committee, such as an investment committee or administrative committee, and other officers and employees of the plan sponsor
The plan’s trustees
Others involved with the plan’s investments, such as an investment advisor, investment manager, or custodial bank.
Plan participants and beneficiaries are exempt from filing.
*******************************************
I do read that it that a defined benefit pension does go on your Net Worth for 8854 though.
Line # 6 on page 2 of the Form 8854 (assets) lists “pensions” as an asset category which implies that the present value of a pension would be included in the net worth calculation and would be eligible for the $600,000 exclusion.
Also, http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-072-008.html, Employee Plans Technical Guidelines, Valuation of Assets
@Calgary 411
Thank you so much for that information and easy to understand interpretation. Thank goodness my little pension only has a “value” of 13,000. Besides my joint owned home which is not a high end home, I will fall well below the 600,000 thank goodness. I think because I was born dual, I am exempt anyway, but who knows…Its so friggen hard to understand all these rules and “exceptions”. I will probably just send it in and give them more info then they need or want!! I did file an FBAR for each year it was over the 10,000 mark, they probably got a good laugh!
Hi, Lovecheese. Keep in mind that what I replied is not advice, only what I think — and you know where that has gotten me!
One of the things I don’t have clear is how is my defined pension “valued”? Although I am now receiving just over $16,000/year in pension payments from my defined benefit pension plan provided by the company I worked for, if it needs an “actuarial Present Value” given for the day before I renounce, I’m stymied.
I just don’t want to confuse anyone by my confusion.
Good luck with yours, Lovecheese!
Calgary 411 Remember, your goal is to keep your net worth less than 2 million. Then you are not a covered expatriate. At that point, you don’t have to calculate your mark to market gain and the 600,000 exclusion is irrelevant. Also you are finished with them. If you are ‘covered’ you have 10 more years of this BS.
Here is a very simple calculator. Plug in the monthly pension , your age and gender and location- non US- press calculate and it gives you the present value of an annuity that would give the same monthly income. Should be good enough to give you an idea of where you stand.
http://www.totalreturnannuities.com/
Remember also they want your best efforts and don’t require appraisals. E.G . If you have a house, find a low estimate somewhere.
Lovecheese, If you were born dual, why are you doing this? If you feel you have to send in 8854, you do not need to do the net worth calculation. All you do is say you are compliant for 5 years and you are presto not a ‘covered expat’ which is your goal
This is from the instructions for 8854
Exception for dual-citizens and certain minors.
Dual-citizens and certain minors (defined next) are not subject to the expatriation tax even if they meet (1) or (2), earlier. However, they still must provide the certification required in (3), earlier.
The certification they require in 3 is that you are tax compliant for the 5 years before you expatriate.
Thanks for this, KalC — for me and for Lovecheese. The simple calculator is useful for all of us out there who have to have a Net Worth Statement for the 8854.
Using the figure I get for my age, and not including CPP, OAS (which I don’t include, correct?) I will be below $2,000,000, even with the City of Calgary 2012 (inflated) house assessment, which has gone down from last year’s assessment (and with the USD conversion, which is now starting to go the other way).
I think the Net Worth Statement, where it is close, living in a house with an unrealistic assessment (Calgary!), it can be a worry for a lot of folk.
Once again, I appreciate all the support you’ve given me! What would I (we) do without the Isaac Brock site?
@KalC
Good point!!! I guess I just always feel like I have to prove to them I am not worth their efforts to go after, and just leave me alone! But you are right, I probably dont have to do any of it.
@Calgary 411
I agree, this site is the only thing that has kept me and my sanity. I very much appreciate the advice and support 🙂
I’ve searched everywhere and I can’t find the wording of the pre-1977 Canadian Oath of Citizenship, only the current version. Can anyone help? Thanks!
http://www.epl.ca/infofile-detail?subject_detail=Canadian%20Citizenship%20-%20Oath%20of%20Citizenship
says:
Oath of Allegiance (used from January 1, 1947 to February 14, 1977 inclusive)
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors, according to law, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.
Declaration of Renunciation (was taken at the same time as oath from January 1, 1947 to April 2, 1973)
I hereby renounce all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign sovereign or state of whom or which I may at this time be a subject or citizen.
I got this a couple of weeks ago, and will use it when submitting a formal notification of an expatriating act to the US Consulate in Vancouver. One question: is it worth getting a copy of the actual oath with the signature on it it, or is that overkill.
Lovecheese Keep it up. Baffle them with B***S*** The more you clog the system the better for all of us.
KalC says: Remember also they want your best efforts and don’t require appraisals. E.G . If you have a house, find a low estimate somewhere.
Deliberate lowballing could backfire. The standard is fair market value.
@Arrow: When I went to Halifax I took a copy of the citizenship oath with me as the form said to attach one if you had it. The official handed it back to me saying “We already have this.” and that was as far as it went.
Not sure if other locations are more picky about this but a non-issue in Halifax.
Thanks johnnb. We’ve got all the other docs assembled now, and (on lawyer’s advice) got a notarized statutory declaration prepared as well. I’ve got the forms filled out too. Just have to phone and make an appointment now — then wait several months I guess to see what they do.
@Arrow and Johnnb
Please keep all of us posted on any and all experiences with the consulates and of course, any CLNs that arrive.
@tiger: Will do but breath holding not recommended. They seem to take a long time doing the paperwork and I am only at week 5.
@ Arrow,
“Notarized statutory declaration” – is this a declaration that when expatriating act was performed, it was ” voluntary and with intent” or do you actually write out your reasons for relinquishment?
By “other documents”, what do you refer to?
Simple answer – yes. The statutory declaration (or affidavit if it’s for a court procedure) simply outlines my wife’s firm belief that in 1974 when she became a Canadian citizen, she believed (and still believes) she had relinquished her US citizenship, that she did so voluntarily and with intent to relinquish, and It documents the “facts” around her immigration to Canada in 1969, her complete and final divorce of all things American.
Y’know what — I’ll copy it here with name removed:
STATUTORY DECLARATION
Canada )
Province of British Columbia )
To Wit: )
I, XXXXXXX, of XXXX Drive, North Vancouver, British Columbia, DO SOLEMNLY DECLARE THAT:
1. I was born XXXX, 1946 in XXXX, Massachusetts, USA and lived as a United States citizen and resident until June 18, 1969. While in the United states, I attended school, graduated from Northeastern University in 1969, obtained a U.S. Social Security Number, worked at several part time jobs, filed US income tax returns as required by law, and paid all taxes owing.
2. I married my current husband, XXXX, a British Subject living in the US as a landed immigrant, in 1967. Together we applied, and were accepted, for immigration to Canada (where my husband spent his childhood) in 1969. On XXXX, 1969, we entered Canada at Blackpool, Quebec and became landed immigrants in Canada.
3. In July of 1969, we settled in Calgary, Alberta and each gained full-time employment, after applying for and receiving a Canadian Social Insurance Number. We established permanent residence in Calgary, obtained drivers licences from the Province of Alberta, transferred our vehicle registration and insurance to Alberta, and completed other normal activities connected to making Calgary our permanent home.
4. In 1974, having waited five years as required by Canadian Citizenship regulations, I applied for and was granted Canadian citizenship. I willingly and enthusiastically submitted my application for Canadian citizenship, and swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen and to Canada.
5. I did so in the full belief – based on reading the rules governing loss of U.S. citizenship as laid out in the US Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA) – that to take out Canadian citizenship constituted an automatic revocation of my status as a US Citizen. It was, therefore, my full intention, upon acquiring Canadian citizenship, to relinquish my US citizenship. I took this action of my own free will.
6. The ninth amendment of the US Constitution and the Expatriation Act of 1868 guarantee my right of expatriation, and my relinquishment of US citizenship is in effect from the day I willingly accepted Canadian Citizenship. Section 349 of the INA specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost, including: “becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18.”
7. Since arriving in Canada in 1969, my only connection to the U.S. has been to visit family from time to time, to take vacations, and the occasional business trip related to my employment in Canada. I have lived and worked continuously in Canada since 1969. I have fully complied with all Canadian laws governing my life and work, including filing annual income tax returns and paying all taxes owed.
8. Since acquiring Canadian citizenship in 1974, I have participated fully in Canadian life as a Canadian citizen, including voting in all federal elections since 1974, provincial elections in both Alberta and British Columbia, and municipal elections in every municipality in which I have lived. In 1982, along with my husband, I adopted a Canadian First Nations child (with full status) as my son.
9. I have not lived, nor have I worked, in the U.S. since 1969, and have not considered myself a U.S. citizen since 1974. I have not participated in any aspect of U.S. life and I have not voted in any US election, nor have I claimed any U.S. benefit whatsoever. I have never possessed a U.S. passport, nor have I ever applied for one. I own no property in the U.S., nor have I had any source of employment income from the U.S. I have not filed any income tax returns to the US since 1969; it is my firm belief that having relinquished my US citizenship through acquiring Canadian citizenship, that I am not obligated to do so.
I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing it to be true and knowing that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath.
DECLARED BEFORE ME, )
At North Vancouver, )
British Columbia, on )
This______day of______________, 20_____. ) _________________________
) XXXX
)
)
)
______________________________________)
A NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR )
The Province of British Columbia
My Commission expires:________________
This information is also required in filling out the forms for seeking the CLN — but our lawyer said anything you can do to strengthen your resolve is useful, and swearing out a statutory declaration is the equivalent of testifying under oath in court. It can’t hurt, and it might help.
And it cost $35 to get it notarized.
The other documents are straightforward — birth certificate, marriage certificate, passports, citizenship certificate (and I will get a certified copy of that through Service Canada.)
Will be making the phone call soon for an appointment.
Wow, Arrow. Thanks for posting that. It’s really helpful.
Do you know if a copy of your wife’s original citizenship is available through a local Service Canada office or do you need to apply to CIC? I think I turned in my 1973 original certificate when I got my wallet size photo card in 1986. I lost my wallet size card a few months ago (Lousy Timing!). I’ve applied for a new one, but CIC say it will take 10 months So, it’s not only the IRS which is inefficient–I remember getting the 1986 one–including having my photo taken–on my lunch hour. So much for technology making things more efficient!
Fortunately, I was able to get copies of both my 1973 certificate and of the 1986 card from my personnel file, so I at least have that–although I know it’s not accepted as official by Consulate.
How are you finding Consulate in Vancouver? That’s where I lived in 1973. I e-mailed them and asked if they maintain records of documents signed in 1973. They told me that information is protected by the Privacy Act. I contacted again and asked if they could simply advise if they have general records of documents signed. No reply.
I strongly suspect my original document renouncing my citizenship is at the Vancouver Consulate–or somewhere in DOS–but they are determined to make this as difficult as possible for us. I’m awaiting info from CIC, but that won’t likely include anything from U.S.
@Arrow,
Wow, thank you so much for copying that out for me. Looks like we might be neighbors (ie mention of North Vancouver). Your wife’s story and my own have similar timelines for arrival in Canada, citizenship etc even other provinces prior to arrival in B.C.
I have not yet seen an immigration lawyer. You mentioned that a lawyer recommended the statutory declaration. Was this lawyer an immigration lawyer and if so, was he local? Perhaps, someone that I could meet with.
I posted earlier in this week some info I received from a client who became Canadian in 1995. This client attended a seminar put on by Davis and Company at U.B.C. for faculty and retired faculty. At that seminar, Davis and Company said that those who had become Canadians prior to 1986, were no longer considered to be Americans by the U.S. I then did some research and found that there was an amendment to the INA in 1986 which basically changed the burden of proving loss of nationality from the State Department to the individual. In other words, pre 1986, the oath of allegiance to Canada plus preponderance of evidence after taking that oath was all that was needed to cancel the U.S. citizenship. Post 1986, there was an assumption that perhaps you did not intend to relinquish. Then in 1990, the State Department issued a policy statement which dealt with loss of nationality. The policy statement indicated that DOS would presume a person intended to retain U.S.citizenship where: “the person was naturalized in a foreign country, took a routine oath of allegiance, or accepted non-policy level employment with a foreign government.”
Because of that statement by Davis & Co. and my own research, I actually now wonder if any of us who expatriated pre-1986 have to obtain a CLN or can we just assume we are no longer Americans (certainly I know that i have not felt like an American for 40 years).
@Tiger and Others: I’m certainly going to try to skip the CLN. I want to stay away from both the Consulate and IRS as much as I can. Information you uncovered last week, combined with info from Ladybug certainly reconfirms what Consulate told us 40 years ago–that termination of our citizenship then was “permanent and irrevocable”.
Do you think “I had every reason to believe what American Consulate told me” would qualify as “reasonable cause” with IRS? Probably not–based on what Recalcitrant, Victoria, JustMe and others have posted. That would be just too simple and logical for IRS to understand. I’m sure it’s not in their 72,000 page Tax Code.
Blaze: The citizenship certificates my wife and I have are the original documents. I want to get a certified copy (had to do this to apply for OAS) to leave with the US consulate — I won’t let them keep the original because frankly, I don’t trust ANY US official. It’s just yet another slightly elevated piece of paper to let the consulate know there’s nothing there to challenge.
I haven’t had any dealings yet with the Vancouver consulate so I don’t know how this will play out. From Tigers comments, maybe this is overkill. But I can’t help thinking that a CLN to go with a Canadian passport would be useful in convincing some US border guard that my wife is definitely not a US citizen. Also handy to give to an overly-cautious Canadian bank manager.
Tiger: the lawyer is Saba Naqvi, a lawyer specializing in U.S.-Canada immigration issues at Boughton Law Corp. She is licensed in BC and in California. We saw her a few months ago, and she had very little “concrete” to tell us because — as she described it — this is a very rapidly moving issue and no one knows what the Americans will ultimately do. Her instincts told her that it would likely get worse before it gets better. She’s not a tax lawyer, focusses on the immigration/citizenship aspects.
Vancouver Sun columnist Don Cayo quoted her in a piece he wrote last summer.